Full Refund In PANDEMIC Situation?

Answered!

Full Refund In PANDEMIC Situation?

Here a word to all Complainer:

I live in NYC and let's face it:
There will be no tourists coming in for the next few months (in best case).

I refunded every reservation (and blocked the calendar)
until the end of April, and I'm prepared that the rest of

the year will be fully refunded and going to ZERO...

I did very well last few years,
and NO, ITS NOT AIRBNB'S FOULT,
people can't fly, going out or even leave the house!

IT IS NOT a change of Airbnb's policy, it is EXACTLY as I signed up:
Travel restrictions = Refund
Deadly Pandemic = Refund
POSTER CHILD SITUATION OF extenuating circumstances situation!!!!
NOTHING CHANGED.

NOT ONCE I TRIED TO CALL OR CONTACT BnB LAST 2 WEEKS.

Once Airbnb boosted my business going from 0 to 100 in 2 weeks
by providing a genius model and worldwide outreach to billion of guests.

For the few $$$ per booking taking from me as a host, THEY OWE ME NOTHING!!!
As long they have 10-Thousands of people on payroll,
I don't have ANY problems with there current policy,
and I don't care if they keep a small service fee or not!!!

I'm still on the lucky end, we have other sources of income,
BUT around us, restaurants, airlines and small businesses will going out of business.

BUT YES, I agree, we losing money: IT SUCKS!!!

And still, our own decision to be in Guest/Tourist Industry
with all the fun, money to earn AND risk to take..!

WEE ALL WILL GO OUT OF BUSINESS,
IF Airbnb LOSES THERE REPUTATION WITH GUESTS DURING THIS CRISIS!!!
LET THEM DEFEND THE BRAND, OTHERWISE: THAT'S IT FOR ALL OF US !

And OF COURSE: I KNOW Airbnb is/was not perfect at all, the review system needs to be improved...
I KNOW! I guess NOBODY IS PERFECT 😉

Stay Safe,
Greetings from Brooklyn, NY

134 Replies 134
Lezlee0
Level 3
Salt Lake City, UT

I'm having guests request a full refund for a cancellation way outside the "extenuating circumstances policy" which seems to be a joke.  I'm hearing they can get refunded regardless of our denial for a refund.  I just had one request a COVID cancellation for May 31st.  Am I right that regardless of my denying the refund Airbnb can still step in and refund them anyway?  I have 3 of these in my inbox now outside the policy begging for a refund.  Seems like they'll get it regardless of my answer.

Hey @Lezlee0 , I'm just curious if you've already refunded these guests?  Because, I've gotten a bunch of these requests for existing reservations too and I've reached out to Airbnb support with some questions but I've gotten no response.  I'm hoping another host can answer my question, since I know I'm not the only one experiencing this.

 

My question is this.  If I accept the request for a full refund will I be loosing money on a future payout?  I understand that airbnb is covering the "service fees" but, I just want to be sure what exactly is meant by this term.  I've scanned the policy but haven't been able to figure out if this covers everything that the guest (I'm assuming) pays upfront (i.e. occupancy taxes, booking fees, Airbnb service fee) or if it's just the Airbnb service fee and that by me "agreeing" to a refund am I agreeing to send the guest money to cover the rest of those expenses that Airbnb isn't going to pay.

 

I hope this question doesn't seem too ridiculous, but I've only dealt with the refund process once and that was after the stay had been completed.  The money that was refunded was taken from a future payout.

 

Thanks in advance. 

Bravo!!  Completely agree. 

Jordan496
Level 2
Montreal, Canada

Well said, I agree, Airbnb did something good to protect the community reputation.

 

But I have a better solution for all of us! Hosts, Guests, Airbnb, peoples lives!

 

Please take the time to read the full article of my wife and me (we are a Medical Doctor and a health research agents). 

Confine only the groups of risk (how the empty Aibnb & Hotels may help solving the Covid crisis)

Here is a smart, balanced solution for all! By a duo of Medical Doctor and Health Research Agent.

 

The solution we suggest, based on scientific studies and common sense, is:

Selective confinement of selected risk groups!

In home if a single person or  more people all of risk. If not, then in the  empty Airbnb, Hotels and other spaces (paid by the government). Also leave the large majority of people, proven not at risk, to move free, work and have a normal life. This will save people lives, enormous government expenditures as well as the economy. 

 

During this unprecedented coronavirus crisis blocking the world, there are two main camps. The one is for a forced  confinement of everybody. The other one is for the free movement of everybody. People from one camp think this coronavirus (SarsCov2) causing Covid19 (SARS2) is super dangerous. The other people do not think… they neglect the danger! Well, both sides are right and wrong. Right to some point and wrong to some point.

Let’s repeat it in another way. If you are for the free movement of people, you are right. If you are for the forced isolation you are right too. How come?

 

THE KEY IS THAT A NUMBER OF SCIENTIFIC STUDIES ALREADY PROVED THIS VIRUS ATTACKS SEVERELY ONLY SELECTED RISK GROUPS!

For all the other people it is as mild as a seasonal flu in terms of hospitalizations and death rates. Yes Covid19 is not a flu, but you can still make valid comparisons of risk rates (if you have solid data, knowledge and clear brain). Covid and Influenza are both contagious respiratory diseases. You can compare both as you can compare relative risks of cars and airplanes accidents and deaths – both are modes of transport.

 

To sum up, the people with relatively high risk of hospitalization and death are people of certain age and certain health conditions.

Let’s focus on the well proven age factor. Different age groups have different risk levels to come to a need of hospital beds, especially in intensive care units, as well as  death beds.

See a quote of a new report (out of more than 70 000 cases studied), published March 30, of The Lancet Infectious Diseases medical journal. Study co-author Azra Gahni mentions in a news release, source (usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-03-30/odds-of-hospitalization-death-with-covid-19-rise-steadily-with-age-study):

“Our analysis very clearly shows that at age 50 and over, hospitalization is much more likely (than in those under 50) and a greater proportion of cases are likely to be fatal,”

“Our estimates can be applied to any country to inform decisions around the best containment policies for COVID-19,”

 

From the same source:

“By decade, the risk of hospitalization from infection with the new coronavirus is: (Practically) Zero for kids under 10; 0.1% for kids 10 to 19; 1% for people aged 20 to 29; 3.4% for people aged 30 to 39; 4.3% for people in their 40s; 8.2% for those in their 50s; 11.8% for people aged 60 to 69; 16.6% for those in their 70s; and 18.4% for those in their 80s or above.

As for the death rate, the risk was near zero for people under 40; crept up to 0.2% for people 40 to 49; to 0.6% for 50-somethings; just under 2% for people in their 60s; 4.3% for those in their 70s; and 7.8% for those in their 80s, the findings showed.”

 
As you can see from the above study, up to the age of 50, even up to 60, both risks of hospitalization and death are comparable to the levels of flu.
 
Moreover even the overall death rate (for all groups) is 0.66% as calculated by the British researchers (again in the range of flu levels).
 
 
 
There is also the early study of the passengers of Diamond Princess cruise ship:
 
Nobody died, under the age of 70 y.o! Out of the 712 infected passengers on board (Almost all recovered).

See the age numbers in the table3 via the link below. There are a few columns. For simplicity, what matters is on the left the age range,  on the right observed deaths:

(https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/table/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2020.25.12.2000256.t2?fmt=ahah&f...)

Attention the said studies are for ALREADY PASSED outbreaks, thus the death rates are reliable. Remember DURING an outbreak it is extremely difficult to give valid estimations of death rates. I do not want to write too long with  too many technical details. But in the media there is so much chaos causing panic with different numbers of mortality… So it is essential for you to know a bit about it!

The reason there are so large ranges of mortality percentages is that there are TOO MANY UNKNOWN VARIABLES DURING AN OUTBREAK. Too many different methodologies. Too many different outputs to measure. Too many different contexts. Too many different terms of deaths rates, etc.

Mortality for example can be in terms of:

  • Case Fatality Ratio (aka Case Fatality Risk or Case Fatality Rate). This  is the ratio of cases of deaths out of total infected cases (but only the cases tested positive or even only the hospitalized cases by symptoms).  This usually gives false high death rates, especially during the outbreak! As usually the first diagnosed and or tested are ill people of highly risk groups. But even after the outbreak it can be misleading as you don’t know the true number of infected persons in given area or country.  Which leads us to a more important number below.
  • Infection Fatality ratio: the deaths vs the true total infected cases in a population. You know the positive tests are just a small part of the true total infected persons in your country!. This ratio would give you an accurate number only if you had the true number of the infected people. This is  tricky to estimate, especially during the outbreak. The first rule of thumb is: the more tests you do, the closer you get to the true number of infected people and the true fatalities percentage. The second rule is: count the dead and live chickens at the end. The third rule: the more epidemic time passes – the more the death rate slows down. But for those that can’t wait the time there is the…
  • Crude case fatality rate: The most misleading rate usually.  You  obtain it by dividing the ongoing number of deaths vs number of infected people. This is the most unreliable estimation! This rate paradoxically gives you very high false numbers or very low false number! Which logically shows you practically always a wrong death number. Mainly because of the time lag between the moment one case is diagnosed and the end point (recovery or fatality). In Covid case the cases stay crude for very long time. The usual recovery is up to a couple of weeks. But in rare severe cases one may need to wait for several weeks to end death or alive.

 

Now you know something about epidemiology deaths that even some journalists may not know.  Unfortunately  most media just throw numbers in the air. It leads to chaos and panic. Even the WHO World Health Organisation Director General gave such a misleading number on 3rd of March during an official speech to media: “Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected”. As he mentioned: “There is now a total of 90,893 reported cases of COVID-19 globally, and 3110 deaths”. See the link to the official source (who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19—3-march-2020).

As you already have the three main fatalities ratio above… can you guess which death percentage the WHO chief used?

That’s right he referred to the crude case fatality rate… the most misleading one!

Let’s not jump to false conclusions or to false accusations of the leader for bad intentions. I understand it was just a speech and the WHO Director General wanted to emphasize the overall gravity of the situation. So that the people to take the danger seriously. This urged actions and saved lives.

The question is does the general public understand the death percentage are inaccurate? As we can see obviously even majority of journalists do not understand it’s misleading! I’ll explain to you about this in another article.

For now just to prove the golden rule in epidemiology… You count the gold at the end. Let me give you the example of another giant mass hysteria that is a dwarf compared to the current hysteria. It is about the swine flu that attacked the people in the last Pandemics, in 2009. You can see according to the study below:

The death risk was miscalculated DURING the outbreak up to 500 times higher than the real risk of only 0.02% proved later!   Case fatality risk of influenza A(H1N1pdm09): a systematic review

Frankly it is co

 

Here below is the most important quote to remember from this study:

The estimates based on confirmed cases were up to 500 times higher than those based on symptomatic cases or infections (Figure 3). The consequent uncertainty about the case fatality risk — and hence about the severity of H1N1pdm09 — was problematic for risk assessment and risk communication during the period when many decisions about control and mitigation measures were being made.

 

Now you see me? I mean my point. You can  have  accurate fatalities rates only after the epidemics is over. Not in advance, not during the outbreak. Sometimes not even after.

To cut the long story short. About the government confinement measures up to now. I think considering  the unknown dangers of this novel coronavirus the leaders were right in general… up to now. They have been taking necessary steps. They did slow down the spread of death. They saved lives.  Of course ideally the world leaders should have prevented the spread much earlier from the very beginning. A great example is South Korea, but that’s another story.

Anyway we do not live in an ideal world. The devil is out of the bottle. He may be dangerous to some people… but inoffensive to the large majority. So we must adapt smartly to the evolving epidemics situation.

Yes. Now, having all the confirmed data about the danger to the risk groups vs. the banal risk to the big majority of the population… It is the time to adapt our approach. Especially the governments!

This virus is selective. Our approach must be smart, nuanced and selective too.

Specifically, we must protect and isolate only the vulnerable groups in the country. In plus, to let the overall healthy population work and live the normal life. This will save peoples lives and the economy. The world must go on.

Now, if you ask me. Ok, but where to isolate the groups of risk? That would be a trillion dollar question. Indeed a question saving trillions of dollars!

Here is our answer. Considering the proven facts:

  1. All people of all age groups may spread the coronavirus infection
  2. The majority of the infected people, especially those in good health in the young and middle age groups, do not have any extra risk compared to flu and common cold (large portion of these groups don’t even have any symptoms).
  3. From the above majority of people (of point 2) only a minimal fraction may need hospitalization (thus they are not an overburden of the health system).
  4. Elderly people are groups of risk (especially those with other chronic health problems). Small minority of the risk groups may develop severe COVID19 or SARS2 (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) which would lead to many hospitalizations, overload of the health system and increase of death rates.
In order to protect the people at risk as well as the health system and normal life of the society. We must one way or another use SELECTIVE CONFINEMENT for the risky groups! If the vulnerable people are confined with all the other people in the family. This confinement may not be efficient or sufficient.

OK sounds good selective confinement, but do we have the capacities for such selective confinement?

Yes. Currently there is an enormous amount of empty Airbnb and Hotels places as well as potential friends roommates! 

The government can simply  pay the relocation expenses of temporary selective confinement  to the persons of risk! Or in some cases the relocation of the family members of the persons of risk.  The re-location expenses would be a very small fraction of the current astronomic government expenditures keeping the overall population confined. Especially that in Canada a large portion of the people in the risk groups live alone or in special residency complexes. 

Every country leaders must evaluate their specific situation. For the moment I ask you to follow the established governments confinement and protection measures. Let’s give the political leaders the time to analyse the evolving situation and to adapt accordingly. Just let them know that there may be better solutions than the current ones. Now.

If we do not adapt, we may need to stay all of us confined months and months till the Covid Wave passes. What about the next wave after?… We can’t stay confined for a year or so till we find a reliable vaccine. We can’t wait for all the population to be tested (with current rates it would take years; even if you are tested negative today, you can’t know if you are not infected tomorrow… you can’t test everyday). The only guarantee would be to test everybody once for anti-bodies (when you recover from the infection you get anti-bodies and acquired natural immunity forever (or at least for some good time). But currently we can’t proceed with such anti-bodies tests.We can’t wait to develop them being in total confinement. We must adapt now with the selective confinement. This will lead in a controlled way to the acquisition of natural immunity of the population. After this the spread of the virus will stop (or if it evolves it would become most probably a banal virus).

That’s it for the moment. We’ll continue further on this topic very soon. What do you think? Please send us your questions or suggestions. Also if you send this article to your friends or political leaders, we would sooner solve this historic crisis. We all will go back to normal life sooner.

Jordan

 

https://docdog.org/2020/04/05/confine-only-the-groups-of-risk-how-the-empty-aibnb-hotels-may-help-so...

@Jordan496  You have posted this lengthy screed, plus a plug for your blog, on several threads now, which is borderline spammy behavior.

Your proposal sucks , IMO. Everyone should just be free to go out and about and socialize and go to work as long as they aren't in a high risk category, ensuring that the virus flourishes and keeps getting passed around for who knows how many months or years, while high-risk people are confined to their homes for maybe years? 

It's evident at this point that areas that have taken no-nonsense lockdown and enforcement seriously for all are now showing a slowdown in transmission and very few new cases. 

I'm 70 years old, in excellent health, and might have another 20 years of life to enjoy if I don't get coronavirus, and don't fancy being stuck in self-isolation for years so that millenials can go about their normal business without regard for their fellow humans.

Melodie-And-John0
Level 10
Munnsville, NY

@Giedre-and-Andre0 , you nailed it, thanks for saying it, im glad to see so many here also agree with you.  I do think its time to let folks in on the big secret, There is no Santa Clause in business legal clauses- No gifts on this one, No Easter bunny leaving golden eggs in our accounts if we don't find a way to refresh them ourselves, No Tooth Fairy is going to pay us for something thats not worth anything, thats up to us to create not Airbnb.   

 

To be sure, Airbnb protected their customers like any good business would, just like thousands of Superhosts do every day in their businesses.  They showed that the long run "Customer First Policy was more important for their model than a short sighted dash for the cash and I believe Customers will return and join when they realize Airbnb didn't charge them for a trip they couldn't take due to no fault of their own.  

 

I lost much  thanks to Covid 19 but that was from one basket not all of them, I write my own insurance policy every day by being very diverse in my ways and means of survival.  I hope everyone that can finds a way to survive the survivable and be better for it in the long run, Bless us all, JR

Stay assured this crisis will eventually come to an end and people will continue to travel, once we’re on the other side of this. However the first think they will remember while rebooking will be the treatment they received from travel agents, airlines and accommodation proprietors during this major health issue.

Cathy545
Level 2
Colorado Springs, CO

Another **bleep** month.  Had I accepted other invitations to book with companies standing by their hosts I wouldn't be in such a mess due to Air bnb.  So broke they can't even get the 25% in our accounts.  Dropped rates on other accounts that backed their hosts.  Rather they have the bookings and commissions

Cathy545
Level 2
Colorado Springs, CO

Add another wonderful month to this website.  75% of bookings are in my state that's lifted restrictions ALREADY!!!!!!  WE ARE NOT IN BOSTON!!!  WTF! and this website continues to screw up our lives up.  Air bnb can't even make the 25% right due to being broke pieces of garbage. And now they do a June 100% refund with no assistance?  Thank god for the other websites or we wouldn't make it through the year.  THANK U AIR!!!

We are in the middle of a PANDEMIC !!    (Airbnb needs updated policies !!!)
Airbnb knows better than World Health Org. and CDC. 
Any others out there that have this issue.Here is what I wrote.  

Note: we did not send funds directly to the "Host" you referenced, therefore we will continue to direct our concerns with you.
Are you seriously willing to loose a long-time customer of Airbnb over a technicality? (Check your records). 
However, what the records do not show is the rest of our family (and MANY friends) who will be impacted by your response. There are other options in regard to Rental Agencies. 
It is most troubling to read your response as you suggested that "you chose not to travel" - as if our decision was based on a minor situation. We were heartbroken to not be able to visit our family for Thanksgiving! No, we were not physically restrained nor threatened in regard to our wise decision not to travel. 
Does Airbnb not recognize (as most other companies do) that we are in a PANDIMIC? 
Does Airbnb know better than the World Health Org. or CDC .., regarding travel risks?
CDC plainly states "CDC warns America: DO NOT travel for Thanksgiving" (Quote). This would suffice even for healthy people who want to curb the infection spike - let alone people like us 64 with serious health conditions. Did you receive my Doctors letter?
Now is not the time to quote typical policies that do not reflect these very unique times!
We are being penalized for following our governments strong warnings - and the advice of our Doctors!
We are willing to overlook these prior policy disputes and remain a loyal customer - only if your company does what is right. 
Thank you in advance for your understanding.
We sincerely don't want to pursue this by including outside intervention, however we will if forced to - if for no other reason than the principle at play here. 
Sincerely,

Sarah977
Level 10
Sayulita, Mexico

"We were heartbroken to not be able to visit our family for Thanksgiving! No, we were not physically restrained nor threatened in regard to our wise decision not to travel. 
Does Airbnb not recognize (as most other companies do) that we are in a PANDIMIC? "

 

While I heartily agree that no one should be travelling for non-essential reasons, we have been in a pandemic situation since early this year, which took everyone by surprise. Airbnb recognized this and fully refunded guest reservations back in March and April ad even beyond that. If guests booked after that, they did so at their own financial risk, if they booked a place with a strict cancellation policy, as there was zero indication that it would be safe to travel or that the virus would "go away" until a vaccine was developed and a significant percentage of the population vaccinated.

 

If guests booked anyway, they should take personal responsibility for that, not expect the host to be their travel insurance.

@Russell-Sydney0

Again, we did not cancel due to the recognized and ongoing Pandemic. You know, the one where facts were developing on a daily basis. At the time there were no travel Warnings to ALL Americans. We canceled after CDC Warned Americans NOT to travel. 
You should go back a read the CDC regulations possibly. (Something all Americans "signed up for")

.

@Russell-Sydney0 

 

You're not going to better Your situation by posting Your case all over the place.

 

If I feel I am being treated unfairly (Please don't quote another policy).  Maybe this will be a warning to others in the months ahead. 
BTW - I'd gladly stop and continue my loyalty to Airbnb if they would be more sympathetic to these Pandimic uncertainties.  

Well, I don't depend on govt. regulations to make decisions as to my own health risks. Many of those govt. warnings and restrictions came far too late or not at all. Not to mention that there are many countries, the US glaringly among them, where the warnings were given or not given due to political, rather than health concerns.

 

My Airbnb listing has been closed to bookings since early March, not only to protect my own health, but because I don't want to encourage people to travel. There were o restrictions in place where I live or where guests were coming from at that time, but I was paying close attention to what was being reported re COVID and how fast it was spreading.

@Russell-Sydney0