Refund

[Lisa6429]

Hi all,

I booked a place in Toronto for 28 days with my husband and my infant. 

The host started acting weirdly but it did not alarm me. Weird things were asked. One of those being "not to approach the building concierge". 

We checked in and directly saw the listing was unclean, filthy. 

I then realised there was no sofa bed as included in the listing (just a sofa). We required that as my husband was going to use it.

We try to look for the blinds, nothing. 

I directly send photographs to the host showing the state of the flat and ask for a cleaning team to be sent the next morning. 

We also ask about the blinds.

Host apologies for the state of the flat and says a cleaning team would come first thing in the morning. Host says she will check with her husband how the blind works (?!). 

At that stage I know something is off, I can see there are no blinds at all, the host does not know the flat. 

The next day no cleaning team shows up in the morning. I follow-up with the host that then says the team would come at 1pm. Nothing... we continue to follow-up and finally a lady shows up at 4pm for a "touch up" without even a vacuum or floor cleaning equipment. Stays less then 1 hour and leaves. Flat is still filthy.

Out of desperation, I start cleaning myself. I can't stay like that with a newborn... I feel disgusted.

After several attempts, we finally got the "host" on the phone. We ask about the blinds / sofa, she gives a blurry answer and finally admits: this is not her place, she has never been in that flat, she has never been in canada and is based in manilla, the profile is fake (fake name and profile picture). She is hired by a company to manage this listing among others on airbnb.

We proceed to contact airbnb. They come back to us the next day and tells us that the host has agreed we can have an alteration of the reservation and be refunded the remainder of the stay. We ask airbnb to guarantee we will be refunded and they do guarantee it. We are relieved. 

Based on that we book another flat on airbnb and leave. 

Airbnb then comes back to us one day after and says "sorry the host changed his mind and now does not want to pay back. Nothing else we can do about this." 

We escalated this to a supervisor who said the same and closed the claim without even letting us respond. 

We only left because we had that guarantee otherwise we would have stayed as its not in our budget to pay that much money.

Out of the last 5 months we used airbnb for 4 full months without any issues. I believe we are good guests.

What can we do ? 

Thank you. 

[Brian2036]

@Lisa6429 

So sorry for this debacle.

This is one of the problems with renting something managed by anyone other than the owner.

Large property management companies with many listings are often very lax about customer service.

I hope you have that promise of a refund in writing. Eventually they will probably give it to you if you keep asking.

When you deal with CS you should be very polite, and very brief. 

1. You checked in, found it dirty, contacted host.

2. Problems were not corrected.

3. You contacted Airbnb, modified stay, were promised a refund.

4. Relying on this promise you rented another unit and checked out.

5. You would be SOOO grateful if they would please refund you for the unused days.

The business about the building concierge makes me wonder if operating an Airbnb there is a violation of regulations…

[Lisa6429]

@Brian2036 thank you for your reply -this is very helpful. You seem quite knowledgeable about this subject and I hope you don't mind answering a few more questions.

Do you think Airbnb will refund the money even if the host refuses to? I have no experience in this so I don't know what the usual protocol is.

A member of Airbnb's support team did confirm that we would be refunded, but then reneged on this commitment. We aren't sure if the initial commitment will be honoured since they responded to us via a supervisor and then closed the conversation unilaterally without giving us an opportunity to respond. How can we respond to this? Are we expected to open a new support chat?

We also haven't cancelled the reservation since cancellation would require us to acknowledge no refund. We aren't sure if we should cancel the reservation to confirm that we aren't staying there anymore.

Finally, we did get in touch with the building management and they confirmed that there aren't supposed to be any airbnbs in the building. We aren't sure what to do next though. 

[Debra300]

@Lisa6429,

One of the primary reasons why you've not been and are not currently due a refund are that the reservation is still active.  As far as the host and Airbnb know, you are still using the apartment.  I am surprised that you were able to make another reservation with Airbnb, because they say overlapping reservations are not allowed.

1. Cancel the reservation.
2. Call customer service again, and request a refund of the remaining unused days.  Reference the case that you initiated before.
3. If you don't receive a written acknowledgment that you will receive a refund, contact your credit card company to inquire about disputing the charge.

[Brian2036]

@Lisa6429 

You now have ample reason to dispute the entire charge to your credit card.

It’s called “fraud.”

You cannot stay in the apartment because it’s a violation of building regulations and it’s quite clear that the host knows it.

You should cancel your stay, which should have been done by the first CS agent you dealt with, and open another chat with CS.

Explain briefly and politely. No screaming, please, no matter how frustrated you are.

Report host for fraud.

If you don’t get resolution within 24 hours, contact your credit card company and dispute the charges based on fraud.

They can fight with CS.

The host promised a service they could not legally deliver. You did not receive what you paid for.

 You must dispute the charges in writing. Email counts, but it’s a good idea to back it up with snail mail.

You WILL get your money back.

And you should be offered the chance to write a review.

Please make it short, factual and accurate. If Airbnb doesn’t remove this listing immediately other guests need to know.

[Sarah977]

@Lisa6429  As Deborah says, and the opposite of what you thought, you must cancel the reservation in order to be eligible for a refund. Regardless of your conversations with Airbnb, they have no proof that you are not still staying in the accommodation until you cancel, which you should have done right away.

And if a host ever tells you not to talk to the building staff or neighbors or to say you're a friend of the owner, rather than an Airbnb guest, that is a giant red flag telling you the rental is illegal and you should contact Airbnb to report it, have the reservation cancelled, and never step foot in the place.

[Lisa6429]

@Debra300 @Sarah977 @Brian2036
Thank you very much for your answers and advices. This is very helpful.

• Cancellation :
I feel stupid now. I followed airbnb's instructions, cancellation was not part of it (they only asked to confirm the check-in and check-out dates, nothing else).
Trying to cancel now however airbnb is not allowing me at the moment. 

➡️Have we lost the refund related to the period before cancellation? Is there a way to claim it even though we haven't cancelled?

Can we hold airbnb responsible since they wrote we would be refunded and we only left the first listing based on that?

• Credit card :
We just moved in canada and are building our credit card history.

Would disputing this affect our credit score ?

• Fraud :
How do I prove this is a fraud ? We only had a phone conversation with the building security. I assume this is not sufficient.

Shall we also highlight other issues (cleanliness/ incorrect listing description) ?

The request not to approach concierge was given to us on 2 hours before the move-in time. 
Exact message was :
" PLEASE DO NOT APPROACH CONCIERGE,  their services are strictly for residents during the pandemic.
If any issues occur, kindly message me here on Airbnb. "

Other strange things asked :
- copy of my ID
- Picture of me holding my ID (I did not send it)
- personal email address & phone number
- external form to be completed requesting various info including my phone number
- request for a security deposit through the resolution center on the check-in day

@Debra300: There was no issue to book another place on airbnb with almost matching dates. 

[Debra300]

@Lisa6429,

You may be facing issues with canceling the first reservation since you have another concurrent active reservation.  I recommend that you contact customer service to do the cancellation on your behalf.

Disputed charges are not reported to credit reporting agencies, nor are they a factor in calculating credit scores: https://www.consumer.equifax.ca/personal/education/credit-score/how-are-credit-scores-calculated/.

There is no fraud to report.  If you must contact your credit card issuer, you would be disputing the failure to refund.  You should have emails or texts to support that you reported issues and requested a refund.  You are eligible for a refund of only the nights you don't stay in an accommodation.  These past few days, you've blocked the host's calendar which has prevented them from getting another reservation, or accessing the space to properly remedy the issues you reported.  It's not common business practice to give a refund for something before it's returned (Amazon is an exception, but they also do reversals if the items are not received by a due date).

[Lisa6429]

@Debra300 Thank you for the link on credit score, that is helpful. 

Your explanation makes perfect sense. 

I have called customer service this morning regarding the cancellation. They do not know why I can't cancel and are supposed to review my case again and get back to me. 

In the meantime, my booking is still open and I still can't cancel my stay. 

[Sarah977]

@Lisa6429  Airbnb is notorious for not calling back, so don't count on that. You'll have to be persistent.

[Lisa6429]

@Sarah977Thanks - Will follow-up with them. 

Trying my best to be on top of that but with a newborn and the fact that we just arrived in Toronto with all of the procedures that it implies, its quite a challenge ! 

[Sarah977]

@Lisa6429  I can imagine. At least a newborn is easier to travel with than a toddler, pitching a fit when you're in a rush, because you didn't tie his shoes "right" 🙂

[Brian2036]

@Lisa6429 @Debra300 

I would argue that there was fraud involved, although it might not hold up in court, if it came to that.

Fraud in the inducement specifically refers to a form of trickery that was used against someone to enter into an agreement that was to their disadvantage.

The guilty party in this type of case will have used the information to purposely mislead the other signer in an attempt to get them to go against their best interest.

If this type of deceit occurs, it would be unfair to require that the deceived party abide by the terms of the contract that was fraudulently agreed upon.

Once proof of fraudulent inducement has been given, the defrauded party will likely be able to get the transaction rescinded, as well as seek monetary damages from the party that deceived them.

In this case, the deceit consisted of listing a property for rent when, in fact, it was a violation of building regulations to rent it to a short-term guest.

It becomes very complicated when you have so many parties between the buyer and the seller.

 I would expect the people involved on the seller’s side to argue that they didn’t know about the rules.

Airbnb certainly had no way of knowing. The offshore host made statements indicating that she knew, but she could claim that she was merely following orders.

 The owner certainly knew, or should have known.

Most people probably don’t find legal technicalities as interesting as I do, but I think the possibility of fraud is worth mentioning if someone really wants to get attention.

Evidence that the apartment is not allowed to be used as an STR can easily be obtained.

 I would write a nice note to the building manager, sales office, HOA, or whatever they have and ask if you could buy a unit and use it for short term rentals.

You will probably receive a hasty reply, “Absolutely NOT!”

[Debra300]

@Brian2036, @Lisa6429,

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't equate a directive to not contact the Concierge Desk as proof that the condo couldn't be rented as a STR.  It's very possible that the building association does allow STRs with the stipulation that owners are fully responsible for facilitating their guests requests.  

The host agreed to a refund, and probably expected that the alteration request would come through soon afterwards.  I believe that the reason why the host eventually declined the refund was that Lisa didn't submit the request within a reasonable amount of time.  According to the original post, Airbnb customer service contacted her the following day after the refund agreement had been communicated to her (see bold section from her original post).  If I were a host, I might be inclined to reverse my refund approval if a guest took her time to cancel, because she is impeding upon my ability to re-enter the space to fix, clean, and re-rent it.  Furthermore, I'd probably feel that the guest was being vindictive by holding my calendar hostage if I was informed that they had booked another space, and still hadn't canceled their reservation with me.  

Just keeping real.

"We ask airbnb to guarantee we will be refunded and they do guarantee it. We are relieved. 

Based on that we book another flat on airbnb and leave. 

Airbnb then comes back to us one day after and says "sorry the host changed his mind and now does not want to pay back. Nothing else we can do about this." 

[Brian2036]

@Debra300 

The absent host’s statement regarding the concierge is not proof of fraud, but it’s certainly evidence.

According to the OP:

“Finally, we did get in touch with the building management and they confirmed that there aren't supposed to be any airbnbs in the building.”

 I think the pseudo-host knew. I can’t prove it but I don’t have to.

The owner and ultimate beneficiary of this illicit transaction has a duty to know, so pleading ignorance should not help.

As for reality, no one can predict what a Court will do, with 100% certainty.

I wouldn’t pay a lawyer $500 an hour to pursue it.

 I would, however, spend $50 to file a claim in Small Claims Court.

I would name the owner, their agents, and subpoena the building manager. 

 I think we’d settle quite promptly.