Is a dispute worth it?

[Sarah4086]

My family (me, my husband, our 2 year old son and our 6 month old baby) stayed for a month at a woman's house in France. She had divided the (large) house into two apartments: the bottom, which she rented out, and the top, her own personal space. This woman is never in town, and had her neighbor welcome us.

When we arrived however there was a gas leak, and her neighbor told us how to go upstairs (through a hidden outdoor entrance), so that we could stay there until a plumber could come and fix the leak. We stayed up there for two days.

When the plumber came and fixed the leak, the host messaged me and said, "so sorry about the inconvenience, glad to hear that now you can fully enjoy the house, as the plumber fixed the leak. But if you prefer, you can also stay in my upstairs apartment, it is a different style (compared to downstairs). You can also take anything from upstairs if you prefer to stay downstairs."

I took this message to mean that she had authorized us to go upstairs and downstairs, especially as the upstairs was now open. So I removed the wood plank that she had used to block the stairs inside the house between the downstairs and upstairs, and me and the baby slept upstairs while my husband and our toddler slept downstairs.

Fast forward a month - after we leave - and this woman starts sending me angry messages saying that she never authorized me to use both the upstairs and downstairs, that in her message she meant I could CHOOSE (all caps!) between the two, not 'take both.' She is angry (apparently) because the team she had sent to clean the place apparently spent 6 hours cleaning the downstairs and 6 hours the upstairs - so she's claiming that they sent her a 250 euro cleaning bill!

I don't know how this is possible, first of all, 250 euros is crazy, especially since we cleaned before leaving (not a professional-level job, but we emptied the trash, did the dishes, stripped the sheets, cleaned the kitchen). I have no idea what this 'cleaning team' was doing for 12 hours (!!) 'cleaning' this house (which is admittedly huge - 350 square meters).

So she wants me to pay this cleaning bill, plus who knows (?) because she requested 500 euros from me via AirBnB! She's claiming I 'broke' the partition that she had had installed for 200 euros between her downstairs and upstairs - when all I did was remove two planks of wood and put them in another room! She's trying to charge me 100 euros for that alone! 

She also yelled at me on the phone for using 'an excessive amount of sheets' (??) and for finding a hat of hers that had been upstairs downstairs (she claims this is 'going through her personal belongings). 

In any case, needless to say, I am furious about this whole thing, and I think she should be barred from renting on AirBnB. 

Her neighbor suggested I pay her 200 euros to avoid a dispute on AirBnB. 

Personally, I don't think I should give her any money at all! All I'd like to give her is a bad review..

What should I do?!? Help!!

[Laura2592]

@Sarah4086 I think you will understand this host's frustration once you have some guests with whom you miscommunicate.

Sounds like a misunderstanding to me. And you do not have any idea of the cost of cleaning in her area, nor do you say how you left the space. You do say it was very large and that you have two young kids. In my experience, those two elements may in fact warrant a big clean up. But who knows. 

If its a month AFTER your stay when this has come up, the host probably doesn't have any recourse. I think that claims have to be filed within 14 days. So on that count, the host is out of line. There is no reason to be punitive and hope she is banned forever. Just deny the claim if you think it is unfair, or pay what you think is fair for any breakage or misunderstanding. Move on, concentrate on your new listings and being a better host to your guests than you experienced. 

[Sarah4086]

No, no it isn't a month after our stay. It is now 4 days after our stay and she is requesting 500 euros through AirBnB !! 

Also I will say that we did not leave the house dirty! We cleaned up - not to a professional's standard, but we swept, took out the trash, did the dishes, cleaned the kitchen, stripped the sheets. 

Either way, a house cleaning that costs 250 euros ? Give me a break. Plus 250 euros extra... I am quite angry. I also did deny her request. But if someone treats their guests like this, how can they continue to offer their house on AirBnB ??

[Laura2592]

@Sarah4086 if the host produces her invoice showing she paid for extra cleaning Airbnb may grant it. They likely won't as they do not often side with hosts and prefer that issues are solved at a lower level. But it is possible. Again cleaning costs definitely vary. You have no idea what us the going rate in her area. A deep cleaning on our primary residence including attic and basement which are finished spaces, with laundry and fridge would probably be close to what they are asking. 

This whole episode seems like a communication issue. I do not know if it was partially a language barrier  but the host said something she meant one way and you took it a different way. Neither of you verified the actual meaning. If the host was nasty in her initial approach that's not good. She should have been apologetic for the miscommunication and approached you for thr fees in a reasonable way. If you flew off the handle when she did that, then that's not good. Guests and hosts need to be able to calmly discuss these sorts of things. It's telling to me that the cohost was asking you to settle. Theoretically that's the on site "eyes" who saw how the space was left. But again,  I don't know the full scope of the issues. 

If you are intent on being punitive you will do like many Guests and weaponize the review. If the host is, they will do so as well. And there will be two more unhappy people posting about a bad interaction that could have been handled differently on both sides.  Just remember this experience with your own guests. Good luck. 

[Sarah4086]

So how do you think I should handle this request?

As to the communication issue, we were communicating in French, but I am fluent in French. I also showed the message to French friends and they said they would have understood it like I did.

To wit, here is the message itself: "Bonjour Sarah je ne sais pas si vous avez croisé la personne mais quelqu'un est venu: il suffisait de fermer la cuve du fioul.
Je suis soulagée que vous puissiez profiter pleinement de la maison,
Mais si vous préférez mon petit appartement douillet vous pouvez y rester aussi.
C'est un autre style de vie, sinon prenez tout ce qu'il vous faut de cet appartement pour améliorer votre confort.
Cordialement,
Sophie"

Google translate gives:

"Hello Sarah, I don't know if you passed the person, but someone came: all you had to do was close the oil tank. I am relieved that you can fully enjoy the house, But if you prefer my cozy little apartment, you can stay there too. It's a different lifestyle, otherwise take everything you need from this apartment to improve your comfort. Cordially, Sophie"

This does seem to be what counts, right? This message.

The on-site neighbor did say she thought I should settle, but what she kept mentioning in her phone conversations with me was the amount of laundry that needed to be done. Four loads of laundry. But is a guest responsible for using 'too many sheets' ?

She does have an invoice for this cleaning, but I still can't see how a cleaning team could have taken 12 hours to clean a (admittedly very large) house. It seems very excessive. 

Beyond that, the cleaning fee is included in the rental price !

[Laura2592]

@Sarah4086 I would have probably said that I was choosing one place to stay in and made clear which. 2 reasons:

1. If the apartments are intended to be 2 separate rentals,  there could be another booking. I wouldn't want to be surprised in my pajamas by a guest checking in 

2) I would not want to be held responsible for cleaning both spaces  upon check out. 

I think the mistake you made was not clarifying. You might have thought the whole place was for you as a balm for the disruption of the gas leak,  but I would have definitely gotten that defined very clearly as well as what I was responsible for upon check out.  

You didn't.  Rookie mistake.  Now your host wants you to be accountable for the whole space. Whether or not her request for remuneration is reasonable is not the point.  The point is that neither of you made 100% sure you understood one another and the expectations of the stay. 

And yes. A guest can use too many linens. We have a 2 bedroom 2 bath house. If one guest stays, we don't expect that they sleep in both beds. If a couple stays, we don't expect that they use both beds and the extra sheets in a 2 night visit. Sometimes people do this. It creates additional time, cost and energy to clean and do laundry. As ABB does not allow hosts to charge per bed, you suck it up in most cases. 

HOWEVER-- if I had 2 apartments, both separately rented I would not expect one group to use all the beds and towels in BOTH. These are separate units. I think the host may have believed you understood that-- you have listings yourself. But you didn't. I can see where the discussion broke down.

[Sarah4086]

Well yes exactly, I did read her message as offering the whole house to make up for the (pretty big) inconvenience of a gas leak when we arrived. Honestly it didn't occur to me to double check about her meaning, as I thought her message clearly meant we could go upstairs or downstairs as we wished.

In addition, regarding the linens, we slept downstairs the first night (using three beds), and then the following day she then authorized us to be upstairs for two days (thus using three beds upstairs).

And regarding the cleaning fee, she would already have to pay for cleaning the upstairs space (or do it herself) anyways, as well as the downstairs (she includes 120 euro cleaning fee in her rental fee in general - so she wants me to pay that, plus the upstairs cleaning fee, plus 260 euros just because she's mad!!)

Another thing - regarding these linens, I did switch beds in the middle of our stay, for a reason that doesn't really involve the host but did greatly affect our stay. Our nextdoor neighbor (at the French house) shot himself in the barn next to the house, about 50 meters away from us. He died. We were there at the time, and witnessed the entire thing, plus the fallout. It was needless to say pretty traumatic (I had met him and spoken with him many times, he had actually even been over to the house). After that I didn't want to sleep in the room overlooking the barn so I switched rooms.

Either way I didn't consider this event relevant to the cleaning charges, but we did end up using another room (the house has 5 bedrooms) for this reason.

[Laura2592]

@Sarah4086 now this story is bordering on unbelievable!

So someone committed SUICIDE next door, in addition to a dangerous gas leak and you still stuck around?! Are there any more details that you need to share about this gothic nightmare of a dark tourism experience? Any ghosts? Home invasions? Mysterious illnesses?

The long and short of it is, you used the whole space and the host didn't realize that was happening. The whole space needed turned over after you left. The host wants to be compensated. You disagree. 

Airbnb will weigh in and decide. 

[Sarah4086]

I know, it really was traumatizing and sad. I did think about leaving at that point, but my husband thought that we should just accept it and move on. I didn't want to to deal with renting another place... etc. etc. so we just stayed.

Yes I guess I just wanted to get other hosts' take on this situation, to see if people thought I should indeed be held responsible, or whether considering everything that happened during our stay, plus her message authorizing us to go upstairs anyways, we shouldn't feel obligated to pay her any extra money...

[Sarah4086]

But do you think I should mention the neighbor's suicide to ABB, in defense of my using 'too many linens' ? I didn't think it was really that relevant, although IMO it would (normally) make the host be even more understanding and accommodating of us...

[Laura2592]

@Sarah4086 oh my goodness no. Do not mention the neighbor's suicide as a mitigating factor. That is tragic but nothing the guest or host has any control over. Would you want a guest mentioning that in a review or to ABB if it happened next door to your listing? If you asked to be relocated totally, I can understand. But after the fact it just sounds like a tall tale which has nothing to do with the issue.

The host objects to you using too much of the space and too many amenities. She thought you would confine yourself to one unit. You thought she meant you had full reign of both. She mentioned the linens I am sure as an example of why clean up cost so much and took extra time. You admit that you used the linens, whatever the reason was. There is no disputing that you used more than the host expected. 

Just as an FYI, additional loads of laundry take about 2 hours from beginning to end in our American washer/dryer. Europeans often use an "all in one" machine which washes and dries in a single unit. We have one in one of our vacation homes. Load capacity is small and it takes about 4 hours from beginning to end to do sheets. If its a quilt or heavy blanket it takes much longer. Again, I don't think the host is exaggerating the additional cost of this turnover, even though you are clearly hung up on that.

[Lenore22]

Such a great learning opportunity, @Sarah4086 . I think @Laura2592 had really hit the nail on the head. Give yourself some time to process before writing your review and try to remove your personal experiences/feelings from it, as it's unlikely that any other guest will encounter this set of extenuating circumstances. Write your review with the intended audience in mind: potential guests. And I recommend settling as the neighbor suggested. It's clear neither of you are happy with the situation now with the outcome and meeting in the middle will acknowledge the other person's position, even though it really doesn't give you what you want.

I'm pretty sure this host will take steps to ensure these things won't happen again on her end. Realized that to you it was "just some boards" separating the spaces, but if she has to hire a handyman to come out and re-install them, it will likely cost more. In general, I recommend guests "leave the property as they found it," which would include putting the partition back as it had been.

For your review:

* Focus on the listing: was the description accurate? 

* For the host: what are other guests likely to encounter? Certainly mention the miscommunication. Advise future guests to clarify if unique situations come up.

* Do acknowledge the neighbor's role as a helpful resource.

*Keep it honest & objective;  short and sweet. It reflects better on you and gives more weight to what you say (if you just mention the miscommunication with one other sentence, it will likely have more weight.)

Hope this helps and I echo @Laura2592 's encouragement to settle this between yourselves and take a "big picture" approach.

Best of luck! 

[Sarah4086]

I do have reason to believe that other guests could experience similar problems. This for two reasons:

1) the host is very unprofessional in general

2) she is also very vindicative. 

1) unprofessionalism:

For example, when we arrived there was not only this gas leak, but the yard had not been mowed for what looked like a few months. The entire place was overgrown with stinging nettles, which stung my son when he tried running around and playing. It wasn't until 5 days (?) later that the gardener came to take care of the yard.

The house is not in particularly good shape, and the host is not responsive to guests' complaints. I saw in an earlier review that a guest complained about the door handles falling off, and when we were there all of the door handles were still falling off.

And most importantly, the house is a huge, old, unrenovated and quirky house, and the host herself is not there to help if there are issues. The neighbor who manages the house does not know it well, so when there was a gas leak (in our example), she didn't know how to fix it. 

This sort of thing could happen to future guests as well.

2) vindicative:

Furthermore, in the above review I mentioned, the host responded with a nasty note about how the guest was 'disgusting' and that she couldn't believe the horrible state that he'd left the house in.

And when I told her (on the phone) that I did not intend to pay for the cleaning fee, she grew quiet and then said 'oh well I see you rent out properties yourself in New York, well I can leave commentaries on them too.'

Which also leads me to believe that she doesn't even fully understand how ABB works!

Anyways, these are the reasons that I think this woman and her house should not be on ABB. 

Thank you for your advice though!

[Heather1328]

You could have cancelled your whole stay due to a gas leak. Once you accepted her apartment in lieu of the originally designated quarters you accepted a change of contract. By allowing you to resume your stay in the original quarters she opened the door for you having authorization to be in the original unit. Which means that if you accepted that change again she would, regardless, have to therefore clean BOTH units. She accepted the responsibility for cleaning BOTH units at that point--and she was lucky you were flexible and accepted the change of placement. 

I do, however, think that you crossed the line by removing the partition between the homes. As a host if I had locked or barred or zip tied a cabinet shut I too would be upset if a guest removed that barrier. You were wrong for removing something that had obviously been placed there to prevent back and forth access. Whether the charge she sent you to repair the partition was inflated or not...I can't weigh in on that aspect.

[Pat271]

When the host said, “You can also take anything from upstairs if you prefer to stay downstairs”, she wasn’t  referring to her personal clothing. I would have been annoyed about the hat relocation as well. It does suggest someone was going through her personal belongings.

 Also, “if you prefer to stay downstairs” suggests that she expected you to choose, not have the run of both units of the house.

However, I personally would not have charged you an extra cleaning fee, just as a courtesy for having inconvenienced you. But as a guest in another situation, if I somehow obtained the use of twice as much house, I would expect to pay twice the cleaning fee. It really does end up being twice the work.

The host overreacted. She started bringing up trivial things to bolster her justification for charging the additional cleaning fee (e.g. the plank removal, excessive amount of sheets, the hat). Any of these things individually would have probably not been a problem, but she let every indiscretion build up in her head into a mountain of misdeeds. Both hosts and guests do this regularly during disputes, but this, along with sending you angry messages, using caps, etc. is extremely unprofessional behavior.

As has been said previously, this is simply a misunderstanding of how much of the house was intended to be accessible to you over the course of your visit. You might have overstepped here and there, but on the other hand, you were inconvenienced by the plumbing leak, and the host reacted poorly to your alleged misdeeds. All in all, I don’t think charging you an extra cleaning fee is justified, and I suspect that Airbnb would agree.