Would love other hosts' perspectives on this! Airbnb cancelled white supremacists' bookings?

[Allison2]

http://www.thewrap.com/people-bound-for-white-supremacist-rally-getting-ousted-from-airbnb/

What do you think? Should Airbnb cancel confirmed bookings because they don't agree with someone's personally held beliefs, or the pages they like on Facebook? It seems an awful lot like prosecuting for thought crimes and guilt by association to me.

Where do we draw the line?

I'm no friend of white supremacists/nationalists, but I think this was poor form. How do we increase tolerance if we force this type of person to only interact with people who share their beliefs? I'd have to say I like LGBT people a hell of a lot better than white supremacists, but what's the difference between a Christian bakery owner refusing to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and a liberal hotelier refusing to lodge a white supremacist?

Non-discrimination is non-discrimination. I offer my listing to anyone regardless of their beliefs. There are several religions that don't regard my gender as equal, but I still host adherents of those faiths. So long as their prejudice doesn't show through in their behavior while staying in my home, they're welcome. So now these people with distasteful beliefs will give their money to someone who shares their viewpoint. It would have been more impactful for hosts to donate the proceeds to the ACLU or some other organization that supports tolerance and equal rights for all.

[David126]

Back on topic I would like to know what other groups are on the banned list.

[Anonymous]

@David126 I guess it's possible that there might be a "blacklist" out there of people or groups Airbnb does not want in its system, but it would certainly have to be top-secret. Given the ease of setting up an unverified user account, it's all but impossible to truly ban an individual from the platform anyway, so even if there were a "banned list" it would be a lost cause.

Websites for extremist and terrorist groups are under a different degree of scrutiny than the average message board or blog, so my best guess is that a non-member of this particular hate group might have alerted Airbnb to the fact that neo-Nazis expressed a clear intention to rent people's homes on its platform to have parties. That forces them to make a choice: either terminate the accounts and bookings, and face a lot of trolling from the alt-right, or ignore the problem and potentially deal with the far worse press that might come when it's revealed that they knowingly left hosts like us stuck with guests who participated in groups that claim to support race war and genocide. Neither is necessarily a good choice, but the latter seems far worse to me. Just picture headlines in a left-leaning clickbait site like "Black Airbnb Host's Home Ransacked by White Supremacists" or " 'Progressive' Brand Airbnb Now the Hotelier of Choice For Neo-Nazis." 

In addition to the potential damage to the brand that might spiral out of such an event, there's a unique thing about Airbnb to bear in mind: anyone with an active profile can also create a listing and become a host, without being vetted in any way.  For the most part this is a good thing - none of us would want our online histories scrutinized every time we want to use a product. But I can also see the conundrum it places them in if their product is essentially being delivered by individuals whose publicly stated values are diametrically opposed to those communicated in its brand. 

[David126]

We do not know whether they went looking or if this was reported.

I feel pretty sure most of this is for show and of course as you say it is simple for someone to set up another account.

Interesting article today about AirBnb being banned by the EU for not paying its taxes, not sure how that blends with Brand value.

[Helga0]

Lol,  @David126, airbnb is not banned by the EU and they pay taxes, just not very much and not where the business is created. Airbnb, lile others, choose Ireland as European headquarters. Ireland attracts companies by offering low taxes on profit. 

A few years ago, the EU cracked down on VAT, so Vat has to be paid in the country where the goods or services are sold. That part is satisfying for Apple or Amazon, as there is about 20% Vat on goods, varying a bit from country to country. On rents, there is rarely Vat, so it concerns only the commission. 

Remains the question of tax on profits. All the big players find a way to reduce their llcal profit, by asking ridiculously high licence fees or marketing contributions or whatever from their local offices. Airbnb's second market is France and they pay 100.000 euros in taxes. Nice, but not nearly appropriate to their local profits. Just that there are no local profits, they are all in Ireland, where you pay low taxes. 

It's not even cheating, it's using the legislation to a maximum. 

What the Eu wants, is reducing the loopholes of emitting high invoices to yourself, to shift profits from one country to the other. That concerns advertising revenues on google and facebook and goods like mentioned above. When I read the article about the French German initiative, I marvelled, that there was not even a shadow of a veiled threat to forbid it. It seems, politicians see airbnb as a player, who is here to stay. They think about limiting the worst abuse, disturbance of the housing market by redfining apartments for tpurist use instead of housing. And they want a judt part of taxes. That's quite understandable, as profits from hotels and local shops are taxed locally. But no EU wide ban. 

[David126]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/10/airbnb-faces-eu-clampdown-fair-share-tax

EU finance ministers will discuss how to force home-sharing platforms such as Airbnb to pay their fair share of taxes and in the right tax domains next month after the French minister for the economy described the current situation as “unacceptable”.

The European commission announced on Thursday that a joint proposal from France and Germany would be discussed at a meeting in Tallinn, Estonia, on 16 September. Brussels will also advise on how best to deal with the so-called sharing economy, in which Airbnb is a major player.

It was revealed this week that Airbnb paid less than €100,000 (£90,336) in French taxes last year, despite the country being the room-booking firm’s second-biggest market after the US.

[Helga0]

Yes, I had read that article too. "unacceptable", "will discuss measures", "more taxes" - but no serious threat. 

There was another one about Amazon too. 

Maybe the talks will result in some measures to limit the practise to choose the country with the lowest taxes for all the  profit from other countries. 

But that concerns airbnb's profit on commissions. The hosts's profits stay local and should be declared locally - if people declare them. As this is the bigger part of the cake, the measures could well mean to find ways to oblidge airbnb to hand over details of the transactions   ,

[Helen3]

Sorry @David126 but as you know your comment about the UK having Christian's in the minority when it comes to relgions is rubbish.

They are still the majority religion by far (currently 10 X higher than those that make up the Muslim religion. The largest growing number are those that identify as having no religion.

[Bruce43]

@David126 as the "internet of things" takes over along with people having their DNA tested its all a matter of time before we are basically "tagged" everywhere we go off line and online. 

I am not an Alex Jones supporter, but it's getting real easy to do. 

The only way one goes offline is escaping me.

Any search site can give all the info about any guest.

As an Airbnb host, I will read the reviews at most.

If I have serious questions, I will check out their Facebook page and be on the lookout for the unexpected.

live long and prosper

                                                                      cisgender

A derogatory term used by members of the trans community to refer to all the disgusting people in this world who don't hate their genitalia.
                                   im too old for this s**t  

[Anonymous]

@Allison2 , first I feel compelled to field this question: " what's the difference between a Christian bakery owner refusing to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and a liberal hotelier refusing to lodge a white supremacist?"

Actually there's a large difference here, both in degree and in kind. No matter how deeply the baker might hold her opposition to a wedding, there are no tangible consequences to supplying a cake for it; the only thing she gains by refusing the cake is an opportunity to express disapproval and impose an inconvenience to the betrothed. However, providing accommodation to a members of a hate group (as any white supremacist organization can rightly be called) may involve a genuine risk even to those who are neutral to its ideology. White supremacist groups have an acute history of practising and advocating violence and terrorism, and Airbnb is in no position to protect nonwhite hosts from the threat of violence or harassment that may be posed by their guests. Additionally, the deliberately provocative nature of a white-power march in the Deep South is potentially incindiary in its backlash too; Airbnb hosts have no means to handle the degree of conflict that may follow guests engaged in such a thing.There's plenty of room for debate about what degree of extremism entails a legitimate security threat, but there is no equivalent question with respect to same-sex weddings. 

I'm saddened to see how, in this political era, the internet can quickly make martyrs out of alt-right trolls who claim to be persecuted every time they're in some way obstructed from activities that explicitly demand the persecution of others. Hate and misogyny and racial chauvinism may be "deeply held beliefs," but why should we obliged to treat them as the equivalent of faith or ethnicity or sexual identity - as protected classes, if you will? The ad for the rally in question explicitly celebrates the Confederate army and their flag - which cannot be mistaken for anything other than an endorsement of a deeply entrenched and ongoing legacy of brutality against black Americans. It resonates with us as deeply as the swastika does to groups persecuted by the Third Reich. As a host in Germany (and a gay black immigrant one at that), the fact is that no matter how high my inclination to keep an open mind to different beliefs, it would not be safe or reasonable for me to hand the keys to my home over to someone attending a neo-Nazi march and displaying Third Reich symbols on social media, even if such a person was not suspected of criminal misconduct. They've decorated themselves with the viewpoint that I and my neighbors deserve to be exterminated; it would be irresponsible to write that off as just another ice-cream flavor.

The question of where to draw the line, though, is a good one and a difficult one. Millions of people say mean and stupid things on social media every day, and I don't see that as something that must automatically disqualify them from free speech or employment or the chance to book a room on Airbnb. And I do sympathize with hosts who may have to suffer a financial loss because Airbnb cancelled a booking against the will of both parties; I hope that they are compensated, or that they have the opportunity to make private off-site arrangements with the guests if they so choose.

[Isabel203]

Thanks, @Anonymous. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective here. Not sure there's anything of substance to be added after that!

[Allison2]

Very well put - thank you for sharing your perspective!

I agree, the element of violence associated with these groups does set them apart from those who have biased/prejudiced views and Airbnb did right by protecting their hosts from a situation that could have turned dangerous.

I realize my post can be interpreted as protecting the rights of skinheads, which wasn't really my intention. In my industry there's an increasing trend toward co-mingling data sources and use of logarithms to determine all manner of things. Since we don't have the same ownership of data as you do in the EU, the prospect of how this plays out down the road is disconcerting. This is the first I've seen of Airbnb using data outside their own platform (other than background checks) to determine the suitability of guests.

In my neck of the woods hate, misogyny and racism strongly overlaps with religious beliefs, so it's hard to untangle: if your religion is hateful is it still protected? As someone from a minority religion/non-religion, it's something I've been confronted with more than once, but probably too serious an issue to try to address on a community board. Thank you again for your eloquently spoken and well-reasoned response.

[Louise0]

This wasn't just about a breach of the anti-discrimination policy.  These people were not visiting Charlottesville simply to listen to Richard Spencer, they were openly planning to engage in hate speech and, based on their postings on their message board, it was clear that they were keen to incite and participate in an affray and were also planning a large party in the vicinity.  Both of these could have resulted in damage to the hosts' homes, particularly if the 'other side' in the affray had followed them home from the rally.

Airbnb did the right thing in cancelling their booking and removing them from the platform.  The would-be guests' actions were so blatant and their crime* so egregious, that once it was brought to Airbnb's attention they would have had no choice.  Anyway, the good news is that the city withdrew the permit and the event is now cancelled.

*Yes, utterances that meet the criteria for hate speech (as these did, because their statements advocated violence against a class of persons) are not afforded First Amendment protection.

[Ron103]

If my town had an event whose sole purpose was to promote political, social, and racial division, I would be very careful in vetting those guests as it would NOT be a good host- guest fit. 
So much so that if I could not be reasonbly certain my guests were not in town for that event, I would block those dates, even in high season.
I also make it point to note on my user profile that I am inclusive on matters of Race, Culture, Religion, Gender, Partner Preferences, or Sexual orientation.  If any pontential guest read my profile, they can definitely see I do not support people that embrace hate.
And while it could be argued by some that white-supremacy is a "culture", I do not believe it is.
My town does have a very large "Biker Rally" that draws over 500,000 to a town of maybe 20,000 adults. It is a big event, probably every single MC and RC in the country is represented. 1% MC's are notoriously racially divided. So I vet the hell out of anyone wanting to rent that week, if I find or suspect that they are affliated, I let them know my place would probably not be a good fit for them. So far that has done the trick.

[Helga0]

I read articles about that in 3 languages now, with less details than the linked article. It makes headlines, but some facts are omitted. Reading the article linked here, I thought like @Louise0, that those bookings were announced catastrophes waiting to happen. Imagine such a mob partying at your place! 

Like @Anonymous, I'd be inclined to accept everyone , I'd not use the expression "a good fit" ever, as I don't request that even. No likely damage and no personal danger, if I have to bully them into following house rules is enough. Those two minimum requests cannot be taken for granted here. 

On a personal side, I had a seemingly normal local guest in May, even a superhost, who turned out very strange. It went from peculiar in the evening to rude in the morning and became a power struggle within a few minutes, if he can bully me in the worst way, which he could not get away with. When he left, I was shaking over hus macho attitude. I had not seen the review yet. It was a discriminatory tirade, aping my (Austrian) accent by a fake German one, mixing in words used to make fun of Germans undrr the occupation and bot used by any German for decades. The private part was even more horrible. It took quite a while, but airbnb took it down a few days ago and is still investigating, if they will close his account. I  had not suggested that, as it being their affair not mine, but he had written a fabricated revenge review for another local of foreign origin a day after mine. 

I get mostly nice reviews and grt along very well with guests. The occasionally crazy one makes me furious a few hours and tgen I forget them. Litterally forget tgem. I know, there were two crazy ones in the same week, but I can't even remember what the other one was about or if it was a male or female guest. 

But this one racist review hurt terribly for all of the six or seven weeks it took airbnb to remove it. Even thinking  of this guy makes me furious nearly 3 months later. And the other host had closed alldates immediately after the review ge got and I can't find his profile anymore. Looks like he takes a ling break. 

Meeting racist hateful people is like veing exposed to poison. In that sense, airbnb took the right decision to protect their hosts. 

From the articles, we do not know how many wrre banned and for what kind of talk. Some things are group phenomena and if a member of this group travelled alone or with wife and kids to enjoy a beach holiday, nothing might happen. If however someone is not a mere follower, but a proponent of racist thinking, it's irrelevant, where he goes. I can't imagine, that my own guest could ever have any decent conversation with a foreigner, especially a foreign women. Nobody not born here could enjoy meeting him, let alone hosting him. Eitherban them or come up with an algorithm to pair white supremacists only with other white supremacists. But where would that lead? Discovering all our thoughts to make good matches? 

[Farah1]

@Allison2 this is very interesting! I do not have any issue with people who are different than me/have different beliefs, etc, as long as they DO NOT PREACH.

I think I will not need to face this situation (receiving a request from a white supremacist) because if they understand colors and can read, then I would not be surprised if they do not want to stay with me by reading and looking at my profile. Unless they want to come to preach and be discriminative.

Isn't it interesting to see that people who do not discriminate are willing to think about a group of people who mostly known being discriminative being discriminated? 🙂