does anyone want to join me in an class action lawsuit vs airbnb?

Kai32
Level 4
New York, NY

does anyone want to join me in an class action lawsuit vs airbnb?

It appears that their penalities are quite predatory, and seems like they will offer these "helpful" suggestions to get more booking such as instant booking.  What they bank on is that the hosts forget to turn it off, despite notifying the customers right away.  Furthermore, no one at Airbnb appears they want to help and theres never seem to be supervisor around when I ask to speak with management.  This has to be a predatory practice somehow and I think we should join forces to make our voices heard.

250 Replies 250

For being so experienced you don’t know much about regulations or business. Of course it’s ruins businesses. Just look at the minimum wage hikes in Seattle and other Liberal cities. Just this year many restaurants closed their doors and many employees were fired. Regulation usually makes services more expensive.

Denis227
Level 10
La Boissière-École, FR

@Juan63 

 

You are absolutely correct. I must rephrase what I wrote before. 

Regulations never ruin ethical businesses, but they do rule out unethical businesses. 

John1574
Level 10
Providence, RI

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My contention is that the most important task for an Airbnb host to accomplish is to keep bad guests from your listing.

 

Airbnb cannot keep entitled, inconsiderate, low class people from trying to book your listing. Only a host can manage their listing in a manner that will keep most bad people away.

 

Screening guests, refusing to host guests that make you suspicious, scaring them away, or canceling the reservation once you figure out that they are up to no good, is the most important skill any host can develop.

Take any bad incident, where you had to contact Airbnb customer Service, And consider that if you had screened that guest adequately and had never hosted them, you would have never had to contact airbnb customer service.

 

Airbnb cannot adequately screen guests for you: Only hosts can adequately screen guests to protect their business.

 

I believe the most proactive hosts in screening guests will be the most successful.

 

No other hosting skill is as important.

 

Denis227
Level 10
La Boissière-École, FR

@John1574 

 

I agree that screening guests  UNDER THE PREVAILING AIRBNB TOS , is the most acute problem for hosts. 

 

But the problem is ONLY made acute because of the lack of security deposit to which you should be entitled. 

 

This  lack of security deposit poses a problem which insurance companies call a "moral hazard" 

 

From wikipedia

In insurance markets, moral hazard occurs when the behavior of the insured party changes in a way that raises costs for the insurer since the insured party no longer bears the full costs of that behavior.

 

This moral hazard theory is one of the principle on which  insurance law has been based. 

 

By extension, every time your renter's behaviour is modified for the worse  by the unlikelihood of any withholding on a  deposit, the host (as a self insurer for all  damages NOT indemnified  by AirBNB ) is  MADE PRONE to moral hazard. And this is very bad news for AirBnb. 

 

So what does AirBnb do to reduce this moral hazard  for guests  ? To the best of my knowledge, nothing at all.

 

Is this fair ? Certainly not 

 

Is this legal  reprehensible ? Yes it is. The moral hazard theory being one the cornerstones of insurance law, it should be applicable  to the regulation of holiday rentals. It follows that  AirBnb is under the obligation to do its utmost to reduce moral hazard faced by its customers ( ie hosts in that case, but also true for guests ) 

 

What can hosts  do about it ?    Have  the TOS being carefully examined by experts in abusive clauses ( not necessarily lawyers - you have all sorts of legal  experts in Consumer Associations who are not lawyers in full standing, but  who will be glad to do it free of charge,  with or without any deal on your side).

 

Clauses are abusive whenever they infringe on the rights of customers to have moral hazard being reduced as much as possible  as part of the duty of EVERY professional to reduce the risk being faced by its customers .

 

Please note that clauses are not only abusive when their wording severely limits the rights of consumers. They can also ( and strangely enough)  be abusive when they are MISSING from the TOS . Or they can be abusive when they offer a "false choice" to consumers. There are dozens  of types of abusive clauses being listed in consumer law if you are interested to study this matter.  

 

So yes, unless you are knowledgable in consumer law,  you cannot even IMAGINE how abusive are the current   AirBnb TOS ! 

 

 

 

Applying  the moral hazard theory to AIRBNB business model, it will become clear that ALL guests, whatever their social condition or level of education, tend to modify their behaviour in a way that to the lack of security deposit,  

Denis227
Level 10
La Boissière-École, FR

Corrigendum 

Should have written above 

"What does AirBnb do to reduce this moral hazard for HOSTS ? " 

Branka-and-Silvia0
Level 10
Zagreb, Croatia

@John1574 

".... the most important task for an Airbnb host to accomplish is to keep" bad guests from your listing."

 

You are right. Just a few years ago most of the topics here on CC were amenities, the number of towels, who has better sheets or welcome basket.... Now, the main themes are bad guests and security.

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@Branka-and-Silvia0 

 

Lol

 

I fondly remember those days - towels and linens and amenities - and I've only been a contributor to this community forum for about 18 months, at the most. Yes, things have changed.

 

Except for the vexing problem with missing payouts, most of the complaints on this forum are the result of people mis-managing their business.

 

Once you understand that the cancellation policies, and the security deposit policies are pure farce, meaning these policies have no teeth as far as hosts are concerned, then you understand that self-protection is the name of the game: your main job is self protection, and the most important aspect of self-protection is to protect yourselves from guests who cause problems.

 

No bad guests, no problems:  could it be much more simple than that?

 

The platform provides many tools with which to protect yourself and to tighten up your listing and your business approach.

 

Once you learn to protect yourself from bad guests then you must master protecting yourselves from the onerous review process. I have overcome this problem by instituting my Reviews Have Consequences Policy: it is as simple as it sounds.

 

Write a Review Primer explaining the review process, and save it as a Saved Message to send to your guests at check out. Let your guests know that reviews have consequences: that you will write a public response to their review. Tell guests that at the end of your review of them, this sentence will appear, to refer future hosts to these guest's performance: "We respond to every review, so see our listing page for more information."

 

Most hosts despise the review process because there are no consequences for petty reviews.

 

Airbnb won't do anything about this, so it is up to hosts to devise a way to protect themselves from petty reviews that negatively affect their business.

 

My solution has worked wonderfully for me.

 

Perhaps the Ladies Auxiliary won't agree nor will the ladies who tea, but it works for me. Lol. Everyone is free to find their own solution. But I believe if you can't find a solution to petty reviews, then you shouldn't be complaining about reviews or the review process.

 

There is no panacea to protect yourself from bad guests or petty reviews, but part of business is problem-solving and that's one problem after another, and successful problem-solving leads to success in business.

 

At least that's my belief, and that's my approach to the Airbnb business. If you feel differently, then run your business your way, and let me run my business my way. There are many different path to success, and I wish everyone the best.

 

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Denis227
Level 10
La Boissière-École, FR

@John1574 

 

If the armwrestling exercice between commercial property managers and AirBnb (which took place sometimes around 2016 or 2017 )  resulted in AirBnb having to modify thoroughly its business model for property managers, to allow them to take REAL deposits, it is for a very good reason : holding a deposit is the easiest way to manage a rental in a professionnal way. 

 

If you agree with the above , why on earth should you renounce to your right of holding a deposit, especially since  the company which forces you to do so is notoriously abusive ? 

 

If you were french, I would easily understand such a position. I would think

" well what the heck,  he is french, he likes to bark as caravans move on"

( I know my fellow compatriots....) 

 

But I don't really understand why an informed  american citizen would renounce to his right. 

( I don't intend to be rude here  ! Just  provocative as usual, only to force people out of their lethargy..... ) 


@Denis227 wrote:

@John1574 

 

If the armwrestling exercice between commercial property managers and AirBnb (which took place sometimes around 2016 or 2017 )  resulted in AirBnb having to modify thoroughly its business model for property managers, to allow them to take REAL deposits, it is for a very good reason : holding a deposit is the easiest way to manage a rental in a professionnal way. 

 

If you agree with the above , why on earth should you renounce to your right of holding a deposit, especially since  the company which forces you to do so is notoriously abusive ? 

 

If you were french, I would easily understand such a position. I would think

" well what the heck,  he is french, he likes to bark as caravans move on"

( I know my fellow compatriots....) 

 

But I don't really understand why an informed  american citizen would renounce to his right. 

( I don't intend to be rude here  ! Just  provocative as usual, only to force people out of their lethargy..... ) 


 

Denis227
Level 10
La Boissière-École, FR

@John1574 

 

I can't read your reply John . Your own text doesn't show  below your quoting of my post 

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@Denis227 

 

glitchy phone service, I think it inadvertently was sent but I rewrote it. I think you know the glitchiness I'm talking about. Lol

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@Denis227 

 

"If you agree with the above , why on earth should you renounce to your right of holding a deposit, especially since  the company which forces you to do so is notoriously abusive ?"

 

I certainly do agree with the above, and I would never renounce my rights unwillingly unless I was forced to do so by overbearing terms of service to which I must agree or not use the platform.

I'm not sure who you think is willingly giving up their rights.

 

Anyone who downloads any app is giving up their rights to privacy and allowing their personal information to be data mined, for instance. In using apps you willingly allow yourself to be abused, and you do renounce your rights, to a very large extent.

 

But the concept of an "informed citizen" stands proudly alongside the concept of "military intelligence" as one of the truly great historical oxymorons in the history of language: especially as the Information Age turns into the Age of Disinformation.

 

From what's been written lately on this thread, my earlier understanding, as stated, seems to be correct: in the US the Airbnb terms of service have withstood legal challenges to their arbitration clause and to class actions.


To wit, neither a guest nor a host can sue Airbnb individually nor engage in a class action lawsuit against them: they must go to arbitration, which as I stated and with which Susan concurred and provided supporting stats, is not often in the plaintiff's favor.

 

That is the situation at this point in time: their US terms of service have legal standing, and all legal challenges to them have been unsuccessful.

 

And it is my opinion that the mentioned pending legislation, challenging their TOS, and on its way to the Senate, has no chance of passing in this political climate.

 

However, I'm aware of rumors that some claims, taken to local small-claims courts, against Airbnb have been successful, and I would like to hear more about that approach.

 

Good stuff, all around.

 

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Denis227
Level 10
La Boissière-École, FR

@John1574 




I'm not sure who you think is willingly giving up their rights.

 

Well John,  I hate to tell you that,  but anybody who willingly renounces to ask his/her  Guest for a deposit  is actually giving up his legal right to a deposit, notwithstanding the fact  that it is made forbidden by an abusive contract dictated by AirBnb. 

 

Nobody on earth is obliged to abide by an abusive contract, John !  Time to be creative   ! Haven't you heard about  "business disobedience"  ( don't worry....  I  made up the expression  myself  )  as opposed to "civil disobedience"  . I already played  that game in France so  I can explain you  how you can play it. It worked fine for me so it might work for you.... 

  

It goes as follows :   as long as you  follow the ToS diligently you   follow the AirBnb rules of the game and you cannot  find an opening.  To create an opening,  that is to reset the rules so that they may turn to your advantage, you have to bring AirBnb  to take a decision which is bad for its reputation.  For this to happen, you have to make a move that forces AirBnb to retaliate and possibly  expel a locally  significant  group  of hosts from its platform. Then you have a  scoop to disclose and catch local media attention and start  campaigning. This eviction might  cost you and other hosts some rental revenues  which you will  be able to claim back in Court at a later stage ( well,  since AirBnb doesnt control its  listings, there are other ways to get round this problem ) 

 

This is the global strategy but how do you implement it  ? Well  you have to find a decent , ethical way to  oblige your  guest  to either pay a deposit at your doormat or go  find a bed  elsewhere. To be respectful of your guest , you have to  give  him a chance to know about this deposit in advance : in your house rules let him know  that you are going to charge a  deposit  at the time of check-in.    Guest don't read house rules ? It's not your problem. It 's your guest problem and it's also AirBnb's problem...

 

But you can't do that on your own,  otherwise your move would not get traction in the media. That's the main difficulty. Finding  enough people locally to obtain maximum leverage  in the local press and TV.  Better have all the hosts in a small city than 50 hosts disseminated in 50 states. For AirBnb can easily expel  50 hosts from its platform throughout the States but can hardly wipe itself out  from any single city.  Finding the right place to start this campaign  requires  some experience  and hindsight . In the beginning there can be just be a handful of hosts asking for deposits.  When hundreds of hosts  will start asking for deposits  it will have become a major issue for AirBnb..... 

 

By that time, you will have read  a couple of  books in consumer law and you will be able to explain to the media  that, since the very beginning,   AirBnb has been offering hosts a false choice with regards to security deposit,  that this false choice has vitiated your consent  and , given the mounting disregard for house rules by ABB guests,   it is high time to review the original ABB Terms of Service , even more so since ABB is no more the home sharing app it used to be.   

 

 

Anyone who downloads any app is giving up their rights to privacy and allowing their personal information to be data mined, for instance. In using apps you willingly allow yourself to be abused, and you do renounce your rights, to a very large extent.

 

True. 

 

But the concept of an "informed citizen" stands proudly alongside the concept of "military intelligence" as one of the truly great historical oxymorons in the history of language: especially as the Information Age turns into the Age of Disinformation.

 

LOL 

 

From what's been written lately on this thread, my earlier understanding, as stated, seems to be correct: in the US the Airbnb terms of service have withstood legal challenges to their arbitration clause and to class actions.


To wit, neither a guest nor a host can sue Airbnb individually nor engage in a class action lawsuit against them: they must go to arbitration, which as I stated and with which Susan concurred and provided supporting stats, is not often in the plaintiff's favor.

 

That is the situation at this point in time: their US terms of service have legal standing, and all legal challenges to them have been unsuccessful.

 

I haven't read  the cases put forward  by Susan yet . But I'm not impressed. Sometimes in order to reach  Goal A , you have to ask judges to settle on Goal B. And when you get a favorable decision on Goal B, you can play round Goal A.  Legal  action is like playing chess. In the begining you can play a variety of different games , but as the game proceeds you have to revise your whole scheme in order  to take advantage of the mistakes of your opponent. 

 

All I  can tell you is :  INDIVIDUAL LEGAL ACTIONS have  an interest per se  but they  rarely move the lines, unless the decision is applicable to everybody else.  If you haven't worked out a  strategy  encompassing legal action on the one side , business disobedience and public campaigning on the other side, you are missing the main purpose of the exercice which is to  demonstrate that the situation  is not only bad for you, but is also bad for hundreds of thousands of hosts. 

 

And it is my opinion that the mentioned pending legislation, challenging their TOS, and on its way to the Senate, has no chance of passing in this political climate.

 

However, I'm aware of rumors that some claims, taken to local small-claims courts, against Airbnb have been successful, and I would like to hear more about that approach.

 

The largest consumers advocacy groups probably  have permanent subscriptions  to Lexis Nexis ( a world wide database which records all court decisions; Lexis probably records also decisions by  small claims court but I would guess that would be only in recent years with the advent of Big Data ) so all you have to do is to enter  "AIrBnb "  in the search engine and you will  have the whole story at the tip of your  fingers.

You don't need to go any further. 

 

@John1574  @Denis227 

There have been many victories for hosts in the small claims courts. The case below involves a long-time Baltimore host, Jeannette Belliveau, who was a SuperHost with over 500 Airbnb reviews, who had also done political advocacy work to support hosts in Baltimore. Jeannette's account was delisted, based on false statements by a guest. In February of this year, she took the guest to court. The guest didn't show up, and the judge was particularly scathing about Airbnb denying members the right to an Appeals process. 

 

Taking  Defamatory Airbnb Review To Court For Damages. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=WgGngGlCBnw

 

11:45 Judge knocks the defense down: "What basis does your client have to just leave false information out there that caused this woman the economic devastation that it caused her?"

 

15:00 "We're not talking about a bad food review. This is about a woman that has substantially lost business due to your client's negligence."

 

18:03 "Complete NEGLIGENCE on behalf of your client. COMPLETE."

 

Jeannette next sued AIrbnb itself in small claims court. While most hosts believe that the Airbnb TOS still decrees that users must use arbitration, at some point the TOS were revised to allow hosts “the right to seek relief in small claims court for certain claims, at their option.”  

 

Lawsuit Against Airbnb Over Removal From Platform 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIrFlISFC1w

 

25:14 “This investigation was fraud.”

 

26:42 “This investigation was bogus.”

 

30:21 “It’s NOT. RIGHT what AirBNB is doing.”

 

30:33 “If you want people to bring you to court … do what you did to her.”

 

30:52 “This woman has been making money for you, and being a Superhost, and then all of a sudden, you don’t even want to talk to her?”

 

31:22 “I think it’s wrong for AirBNB to even have somebody sign that [the terms of service]. I really do.”

 

32:27 "AirBNB needs to at least tell the truth. Tell the truth. And if not done, we’re going to hold them in contempt.”

 

JEANNETTE'S SUMMARY:

"I was denied damages of $5K, based on the judge’s view that I had voluntarily signed the Terms of Service waiving a right to damages.

 

BUT the judge tore UP the AirBNB attorney for “making money off this host, but not providing her due process or any real investigation.”

 

The judge ordered AirBNB to do something to write a note on my listing to state (trying to remember exact wording …) something to the effect of, “This review is false and the host has been reinstated.”

 

She said to come to her if this did not happen and she would issue a contempt of court ruling"

 

@Susan17  I watched that video this last summer. The judge was indeed not only scathing but incredulous at the way Airbnb had handled the dispute and that their TOS is basically illegal and immoral. Airbnb's lawyer talked in circles and in the same obfuscating tone that the company has become known for. He sounded like one of their bad CS reps and came off as a bumbling idiot.