Guests covering cameras-- what are your thoughts?

[Laura2592]

Wondering if anyone saw this?

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/airbnb-ring-camera-cover-up-tiktok/

I am thinking about putting something in my listing that cameras should remain untampered with during stays. I recently was told ABB sided with a guest because their listing did not disclose that outdoor cameras were always on, so I updated my wording under "security devices" as well. 

Shouldn't a guest who is uncomfortable with a (disclosed, legal) camera just choose to book at places where there are none?  Have you had a guest cover your camera? How do you feel about this?

[Colleen253]

@Laura2592 The way I see it is my security camera’s are my property, and the expectation  is they will not be tampered with, anymore than any other part of my property should be tampered with by anyone. They’re outdoors and not in private spaces. If I’ve disclosed them, then someone who doesn’t like them is free to not book.

I do mention that they’re always ‘on’. Cover all bases. They’re also in a position out of reach so they’re difficult to mess with. They capture both bodies entering and exiting the house, and vehicle license plates. They’re not there to check up on anything other than to tell me when my TV walks out the door or 50 people show up to party. 

[Laura2592]

@Colleen253 I agree. I could care less about my guests activities as long as they aren't throwing parties or stealing. I have zero interest in watching anyone sit on my porch. If a guest hates cameras they can certainly book plenty of spaces without them.

[Jamison13]

I agree 100%.

Brand new to hosting and we have a front doorbell camera for deliveries and security as we are two hours away. 

We followed the guidelines and listed that we had a security camera on premises. A guest arrives and acts super surprised, he then proceeds to cover the camera with painters tape which came with tons of profanity towards the “host”..

Big shout out to support for their response time and ultimately getting the guest to remove the tape. However, I was just checking in on my Nest app prior to calling it a night and noticed a hanging plant had been moved. Not a huge deal but wanted to understand why— we reviewed the camera footage to find the guest staring at the camera while throwing out profanities directed towards the “host” as he moved the plant. Kind of can’t wait for these people to leave. 

Anxiously awaiting the feedback from

the cleaners. 

[Jenny]

Hi @Jamison13 

Sorry to hear about this - and thanks for reporting back that Support were able to help out.

I just wanted to check in and see if you'd heard back from the cleaners.  Hoping everything is ok.

Jenny

[Anonymous]

@Laura2592  Full disclosure: I think of external cameras as a necessary evil for off-site hosts listing on a platform known for party problems. But I personally don't book homes that have them when I'm traveling as a guest. Maybe it's a visceral thing - I know I'm on CCTV when I walk into the subway or supermarket or even hotel, where I'm relatively anonymous among hundreds, but it feels much more invasive when my traveling companions and I are the sole subjects of what might be someone's creepy personal movie. As a guest with no intention of breaking anyone's rules, I'd prefer a host who happened to live next door over one who was watching me enter the door from a long distance away on their phone. That's just me - I might not be a typical guest that way.

Another way that I might not be a typical guest, though, is that I know the building of an Airbnb listing well enough to take it down to its studs, so I arrive at a search result already knowing how to look for the things that might bug me. I'm not going to show up at a house and be surprised by cameras that were plainly disclosed in the listing, because I've already had my fingers in the guts of this beast. What you say, Laura, definitely applies here - if I hate the cameras I can book a space without 'em, although it takes a little extra effort because last time I looked there wasn't a  "no cameras" search filter available in the same way there is for "flexible cancellation" and "pets allowed."

Regional variations also apply; those doorbell cameras are much more popular in the US than just about anywhere else. As are a lot of much worse things I won't get in to. But back to the topic - no, it's not OK for a guest to disable a home security feature without permission, and as long as it was disclosed in the listing, I think they lose the right to complete their stay if they try to do so. Airbnb will usually decide that they get their money back for the unused nights when you kick them out, and that's that. 

I wonder if Airbnb would overcorrect so much for camera complaints, if it didn't have so many remote hosts pleading for them to do something about the guests they caught doing something bad on camera but had no way to personally intervene. So many new hosts seem genuinely surprised that they don't send a SWAT team to Zanzibar to break up a party on behalf of some real estate speculator in Houston.

[Sarah977]

@Laura2592  If a host has outdoor cameras, of course it's not okay for guests to cover them. As Andrew said, they shouldn't book a place with cameras if it bothers them.

I also am not a fan of cameras, but I know they are pretty important to have for off-site hosts. But that's one of the reasons I would never consider being an off-site host. I really dislike surveillance devices and wouldn't want to have to use them . I totally get it in stores to prevent shoplifting, and banks, and other public places, but it's disturbing to me to see them at a private home and I think people these days are far too amenable to giving up their privacy in many ways. 

There's a quote from Edward Snowden that goes something like, "Saying you don't care about privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say".

[Colleen253]

@Sarah977 “I totally get it in stores to prevent shoplifting, and banks, and other public places, but it's disturbing to me to see them at a private home”.

People shoplift from Airbnb’s too. I actually did have my TV walk out the front door, back in the day. I didn’t have cameras then. It’s the reason I do now.  Would have been helpful to have had the footage and the license plate of the thief. Like @Laura2592, I really don’t give a rats azz about the fine details of what my guests get up to. But I do want to have some general sense (and a record if necessary) of what is going on. Believe me, I’d rather not have to bother.

[Sarah977]

@Colleen253  Yes, like I said, I understand the need for cameras for an off-site host. When I said private homes, I was thinking of how people have cameras even at their own homes, not rentals, in a lot of places. 

[Michelle53]

@Laura2592  I have ring doorbells at my main home entrance and my guest entrance. I'm very clear about their location, and that they can and do record audio and video. 

I don't watch them all the time, of course, but I can see if someone brings in extra guests, which I've had issues with in the past.  I might spot-check the video now and then.     

 I have had people wave "hello" at the door, so folks seem to be used to them, like folks in the UK are probably used to CCTV everywhere. 

I had one guest put her hand over the doorbell while bringing in an unregistered visitor.  She forgot to repeat that when he left.    I was somewhat surprised to see that, since she was very nice and left the space in great shape.  I let it go though,  since it appeared he dropped her off, stayed a while, then left. 

Maybe that's the debate right there - is it creepier to know when someone enters and leaves, or covers a camera to do something they know they aren't supposed to do ? 

Before I had ring doorbells, I had people do weird things like removing entrance light bulbs. Why would someone do that ?   I used to have people smoking just outside the door and leaving stubs on the retaining wall. That's stopped now, too, thankfully. 

If folks are uncomfortable with the cameras, they are, of course, free not to book, but overall,  I am glad I installed them. 

[Anonymous]

@Michelle53 Interesting debate point. Everything we use on the internet pushes our boundaries of how much privacy we're willing to give up in exchange for all the things we want and depend on. If an individual person spied on us the same way our apps do, we'd immediately have to get either a restraining order or a gun.

I find it all creepy, but in a vague way that I'm used to tuning out. It's much more gut-wrenchingly stressful to feel like someone in your own house is deceiving you and abusing your trust. So that one wins on the creep factor for me - definitely a bigger deal-breaker than the camera. But I'll still stick to booking places that don't use them for as long as that's possible. 

[John5097]

@Laura2592 

I think exterior cameras would be necessary for off site listings and just have to keep adjusting the listing and phrasing. If it becomes more of a problem or issue make it more prominent in the listing. Might also include something in house guide that a recorded video its just there for security reasons only.  Might also install one on a flood light as well. I did have one guest adjust my flood light settings, tested the smoke alarm, etc, but kind of realized he was a bit ocd and left a bunch of gifts from convention he was attending such as usb chargers, note pads, pens. Really didn't like that but can't stress about every little thing and the rest of the guest need lighting. 

[Debra300]

@Laura2592,

I have in my house rules that I may cancel a reservation if a guest blocks or moves the Ring doorbell or other exterior home security cameras, and they will be charged for any damages to the equipment.  I rarely look at the videos, but may do so when there are unusually frequent notifications, because the ping sounds become irritating.