Unequal partnership

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

Can anybody tell me that when a Covid cancellation occurs and the Host loses their entire cancellation fee whether Airbnb retain their service fees? I know that in the initial stages of Covid-19EC they did. How about now?

As far as I can found out (at the moment) any cash refunds to Covid cancellations currently are being deducted service fees as an incentive to provide vouchers. If such cancellations are so legitimate, why are Airbnb keeping their fees for a 'service which didn't happen'?

Asking because so many guests are attempting to cancel under Covid, attempting so, stating the most obtuse reasons.

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

Specifically thinking about the cancellation options...

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

Sorry, in the early stages of Covid-19 AirBnb did refund their service fees. It is the current situation  which I am trying to find out.

[Mike-And-Jane0]

@Ian-And-Anne-Marie0 I think that for pre March 14th bookings they refund the booking fee as guests are able to cancel due to the ever moving out dates. For bookings made post March 14th cancellations they retain the fee.

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

@Mike-And-Jane0 

The Covid-19EC policy looks pretty straightforward until you try to equate it with what is actually happening.

Currently the UK is heading for opening on 4th July. EC policy is allowing cancellations until the 15th. How is that appropriate to government guidelines which the policy is supposed to be based on?

For guests enquiring about cancellations up to that time, will they be getting full cash refunds including service fees or not? What about guests after that time? (Pre March 14th Bookings).

[Mike-And-Jane0]

@Ian-And-Anne-Marie0 I'm not sure what you are trying to say here other than Airbnb are being unfair. I think that  the EC for guests booking pre March 14th is clear with everyone losing out. Continually extending it on a Worldwide basis is madness but that is the decision they have taken. Once we can actually host holiday guests (hopefully post July 4th and once guests don't have to quarantine if coming from abroad then I suspect the policy could be challenged under law but is it worth it? I have  just accepted that pre March 14th bookings are a write off and have moved on which reduces the stress of continually hoping Airbnb will be more sensible!

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

@Mike-And-Jane0 

Haha! Yes, I know, too many questions! I've been dizzy over this one.

I found out what I needed to know now. Saying it and proving it are two different things altogether but learning the detail was key, and I was right. Equating what the EC policy was stating with what was happening just wasn't right and it was troubling.

Suffice it to say that not only are hosts being screwed, but so too are guests. Now, that doesn't balance things out in my opinion, as we get along great with our guests and I don't think they should be screwed over either. Just knowing the rules of the game means it can be played far more effectively. 😀

[Sue714]

@Ian-And-Anne-Marie0  As a guest who had to cancel a 10 day booking which required us to travel interstate, then restrictions required us to isolate for 14 days etc. We had to wait for the Airbnb window to open for us to cancel the booking. We were then were given the choice to receive a credit for our entire booking to be used anytime, anywhere. So yes Airbnb have kept the funds for now. Otherwise we could have gone with the Extenuating circumstances option which we had to physically upload documents to prove our case which could have been rejected and not receive any refund back.

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

@Sue714 

Thanks for your input. That 'attest' Covid 19 policy has a lot to answer for. Without providing the details required for a fully legitimised Covid cancellation by needing to  provide evidence you could have guests cancelling for any reason without any travel or quarantine issues. This only impacts hosts and is very biased IMO. It's interesting too when it came out... just about the time when Airbnb were laying off all their staff. Abdicating responsibility, somewhat.

Tough question; but did you arrange travel insurance for your trip?

[Denice0]

@Ian-And-Anne-Marie0 , Yes, now the guests, who booked prior to March 14th, are being screwed unless they have the documents that Airbnb requires.  Early on (March) I had one guest get a full cash refund, they just stated it was for Covid-19  EC policy.  Airbnb refunded 100%, with all fees (cash) as they stated they would in "that" policy.

Then the Airbnb Policy required specific documentation, a cancelled flight or proof that the guest had C-19.  Only if they had the documents, which my guest had a hard time uploading and had to call CS for assistance, could they get a full 100% refund.  I'm still not sure if the fees were refunded in cash or credit.

If a guest does not have a cancelled flight or proof of C-19 documents, the strict cancel policy is upheld, and Airbnb throws the blame for not having those documents toward the host; they instruct the guest to request a refund from the host.  Airbnb then keeps their booking fee, sometimes the 3% credit card fee, and lets the host refund their full 50%, partial refund or nothing.  That is what I figured out, as I navigated the non-transparent C-19 EC policy through 6 cancellations.

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

@Denice0 

I'm still not sure if the fees were refunded in cash or credit.

All refunds are supposedly available in cash if you go to the right place. I've been sending all my cancellations there as a last resort effort.

Strangely, in France it is illegal for a guest to cancel on a host. The guest must rebook with the host at a later date. Thats a far simpler and more even handed policy IMO

[Stephanie]

Hiya @Ian-And-Anne-Marie0 ,

On your point regarding France, it is not applied to booking platforms such as Airbnb. I have a link but it's all in French (I'll share it anyway).

Many thanks,

Stephanie

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

@Stephanie 

Thanks Stephanie, It's great to get feedback on these sorts of issues.

I did think for a moment your link could be an independent legal disclaimer of sorts, but it isn't - it's just an Airbnb Admin on the French CC site. It's an interesting read anyway, (along with all the other posts). Although, It's a little bit like pointing to a Help Article here and saying it's part of the Terms & Conditions when they're not.

The French Law was actually as stated, in France it is illegal for a guest to cancel on a host. In France, Airbnb are classed as Intermediaries and write their own 'laws' taking them outside of French law which is the difference.

A more interesting French website link is here from the European Consumer Centre in France: 

https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/consumer-topics/travelling/coronavirus-your-rights-as-travele...

This paragraph is of particular interest:

But be aware, these online platforms (Airbnb) remain intermediaries that connect a buyer and a seller so they have no obligation to refund the price of your reservation. Find out about the support and reimbursement policies implemented by the platform used for your reservation.

One can deduce from that, that French Guests would love Airbnb for providing them their 'Liberté' ? Likewise French Hosts will be hating on Airbnb. (Even more than UK hosts, knowing the French).

Another really interesting paragraph on that European Consumer Centre in France is this one:

(part quoted):

The vouchers can have a validity of up to 18 months. If at the end of 18 months you have not used the voucher in full or partially, the trader needs to refund you.

The trader has to inform the customer within 30 days of the notification of the cancellations of the existence and modalities of the voucher.

And within 3 months of the notification the trader has to propose an alternative travel

• identical or equivalent to the initial contract, including same price (only increases foreseen already in the initial contract can be applied)
• if the customer wants or agrees to higher standards, he/she has to pay the difference
• if a lower standard is offered, the consumer keeps the rest of the amount on the voucher. It can be used for another travel or be refunded at the end of the 18 months period.

Again, this is very even handed for the guest. But it's not what Airbnb have implemented.

One can deduce from that, that the French Guests would hate Airbnb for taking their 'Liberté' - or more specifically, taking just their money - as I'm sure many guests will be?

Will Airbnb be offering this more even handed approach in the future as no statement of where surplus funds will be going has been made?

- If not used will the voucher be refunded to guests?

- If used, will any remaining voucher value be refunded to guests?

It is their money.

So many questions. Maybe you could ask somebody who might have these answers for us because there will obviously be a surplus of voucher credits going spare, not only in France, but worldwide. Who gets to keep that money?

There does seem to be a lot of questions about money here. None seems to be making its way back to hosts yet all hosts are being penalised. This is making for a very unequal partnership.

Money again. I did ask previously about charity payments which nobody managed to get around to answering. Perhaps if you're asking questions on these matters you might add this; Airbnb are very keen to get Guests and Hosts to donate to various charities. The variety of ways to donate are increasing almost daily, but no past payment information to charities can be found anywhere. Where can the annual reports be found in relation to donations collected and disbursed by Airbnb?

Any answers would be appreciated.

@Mike-And-Jane0 @Sue714 @Denice0 

[Stephanie]

Hiya @Ian-And-Anne-Marie0 ,

Yes, I should have mentioned that the content of the post was prepared by the Airbnb legal team, sorry about that. I've put your questions to the team also and will update this thread when I have some info for you.

Thanks,

Stephanie

[Ian-And-Anne-Marie0]

@Stephanie 

That link you provided to the French CC was an interesting read. Particularly one member of the CC had researched the particular Ordinance covering the Host/Guest relationship and it explains differently than the post you linked to.

Whether you believe the Airbnb legal team or whether you believe the French government, this will certainly be a public battle in a short while with many hosts being encouraged to report Airbnb to the French government for not adhering to their law for the matter to be finally settled.

Have a read of this post; It makes interesting reading and makes many salient points:

----------------<Start of post>-----------------

Post by @ Nathalie-Et-Gilles0

Good morning all,

Here is the government's final decision applicable to all tourist rentals made in France:

Ordinance n ° 2020-315 of March 25, 2020 relating to the financial conditions for the resolution of certain tourist travel and stay contracts in the event of exceptional and unavoidable circumstances or force majeure  

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000041755833&categorieLien=id

1 / Does force majeure within the meaning of French law apply to cancellations due to covid?
The answer is no.
This ordinance was written in order to organize and protect the rights and obligations of rental companies, service providers and travelers during this period when hosts and travelers are subject to travel restrictions.

2 / Is Airbnb subject to this order?
The answer is yes.

Article 1 defines a very broad target since it includes tour operators, natural or legal persons producing contracts for the sale of trips or stays.

3 / What reservations are affected by this order?

The reservations concerned are those to be made between March 1 and September 15, 2020.

4 / What does this ordinance impose (Article V)?

4.1 / This order requires Airbnb (and other rental companies or sites operating on French territory) to issue a credit note no later than 3 months after notification of the cancellation of the stay.

4.2 / After this period, if Airbnb has not issued an EXCLUSIVE credit between the host and the traveler who has canceled and has reimbursed the traveler without the host's agreement, payment will be due to the host up to what is provided in its cancellation policy.

4.3 / If Airbnb has issued a  valid credit EXCLUSIVELY between the host and the traveler having canceled then Airbnb keeps the funds and pays them to the host on the arrival of the traveler.

5 / What are the rights and obligations imposed on the parties?

5.1 / The traveler has the right and must obtain within 3 months a credit note to be used exclusively with his host within 18 months.

5.2 / In exchange for the credit to the traveler who must re-rent with the host, the host must provide an equivalent service without increasing its price (Article IV).

5.3 / If at the end of 18 months, the host could not offer a substitute or honor the service, the traveler is fully reimbursed.

6 / What to do if Airbnb does not respect the law?

If Airbnb does not pay the host the cancellation fees provided for in the contract, a report must be made to the DGCCRF.

https://www.economie.gouv.fr/dgccrf/contacter-dgccrf

Airbnb is very familiar with this order.
They will therefore not be surprised at your request to apply it.

Hoping to have helped you (hosts and travelers) and that this will end the infinite debates on the question of whether Airbnb had the right to fully reimburse travelers without the agreement of the host.

The answer is no.

Have a good day,

-------------------- <end of post> -----------------

Post Link: https://community.withairbnb.com/t5/Cercle-des-h%C3%B4tes/FRANCE-Comment-obliger-Airbnb-appliquer-la...

@Denice0 @Sue714 @Mike-And-Jane0