How can Airbnb refund without getting details???

[Richard2261]

Ok, I'm pretty mad.  Airbnb refunded a guest who just left $30% which was almost $500usd.   These guests were a nightmare.  Neighbours complained about them being drunk, driving, climbing the 9ft fence we had, broke a door handle, broke a concrete part attached to a fence.....  So many issues beyond this. I knew they were going to be a problem before they showed up because they wanted to cancel 4 days before their date but couldn't because of my strict cancellation policy so they were looking to recoup their losses I think.

One interesting thing is apparently all of them were deaf....but my wife and I talked to them in a video call when they arrived at our house.  This seems totally like a scam. They are even contacting us now to mail them back 3 open bottles of liquor which I checked and is illegal to mail to the US.  

In the end they apparently sent airbnb pictures that got them a 30% refund.  Airbnb won't explain the pictures to me or show me the pictures.  How does airbnb know they are even of my house if I can't confirm them.  We have the house deep cleaned before each guest so anything dirty would be from the guest.  I'm going to video the house before each arrival from now on.  Over 100 guests now, good reviews, and have never had this happen.   

Can anyone tell me if it's normal for airbnb not to share pictures in this situation or even contact the host before giving a refund like this?  I'm extremely pissed off and will definitely start using other platforms now because for years now I have only used airbnb. 

Thanks for any info

Richard 

[Huma0]

@Elaine701 

I don't really have much experience of trying to claim for damages via Airbnb. There was only that one time that I experienced it and it was all so easy, which was not what I was expecting. Maybe it was because it was my first claim? Maybe it was the correspondence with the guest which made them side with me. I don't know. 

Like you, I don't bother to make a big deal out of small damages. It's not fair to have to pay out of our own pockets for stuff that is not normal wear and tear, but it just doesn't seem worth the confrontation nor the hassle. The guests who are willing to pay will voluntarily offer. The rest will fight you. I only put in that claim because it was something substantial and a direct result of the guest totally ignoring my instructions, rather than an innocent accident. I'm sorry to hear that you have had several large scale damages.

I do, however, know what you mean about the reps always trying to close the case. It was the same with the rep who wrongly issued that refund. She didn't care that it was clearly her mistake. She just said there was nothing to be done. Case closed.

I then got absolutely nowhere with the various reps I was passed around to. They did close the case because they said I had another one open about it, but that's not true. That was a different case about a different reservation. The whole thing was such a pain.

I guess it might be different when it's not a damage claim, but every time they tried to close the case again, I just kept responding no. Every time they said the refund was correct according to 'our policy', I copy and pasted the policy and sent it back to them. Over, and over and over... Eventually, I guess they realised I was not giving up and that it was easier just to pay me! I really was like a dog with a bone. 

It was a really painful experience though. I, like just about every other host, had already lost a lot of income due to COVID and I had also just lost my job because of it. I was damned though if I was going to let Airbnb give out my hospitality for free (besides the fact that a stay results in expenses for the host). How DARE they refund a guest who reported no issues whatsoever for the two weeks she had already stayed at my home!

[Elaine701]

@Huma0 

Our 2nd F&F (Frivolous & Fraudulent) claim this year just checked out last week. More F&F's than any other year in our hosting history. It's beginning to feel like a trend. 

The first did not receive any reward, since they didn't provide any evidence, and we provided overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It just sort of vanished. Well, as far as I know anyway - last time I looked, the ticket was still open. I haven't looked lately. 

This one is equally amateur - no evidence of their claims (I don't know what they possibly could offer other than their word), but we had to take the time to collect and submit overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Frankly, we have enough to do to maintain good hosting standards without being diverted by this kind of thing. 

But while Airbnb initially took very serious interest in this guest's claim, a week later, no further communication from Airbnb, who seem to have forgotten it. I can only keep watching for an arbitrary ruling in favour of the guest (or not) sometime in the next year or so.

Now, there's little communication from Airbnb, and what little we do receive often contains more smarm than substance. 

With increasing guest-favouritist policies encouraging these behaviours, I can only expect to see more of this now.

The upside is that most of the F&F's appear to woefully inept at it. May it continue 🙂. But hosts increasingly need to be prepared and ready to destruct F&F claims beyond any doubt, or suffer the consequences. You are, after all, guilty until proven innocent. 

To be fair, I do greatly appreciate that we've avoided being clobbered so far. But it's still early on this one. We shall see... 

Oh, and yes, I originally posted this in the Airbnb updates forum. I thought it would get more exposure here. 

[Huma0]

@Elaine701 

So far, I haven't had any F&Fs but, having read the frequent stories about them on the CC, I am expecting it to happen sooner or later. 

I do know how time consuming and just painfully frustrating dealing with CS though. The case I have open right now is such a small thing (a technical glitch) but it took a lot of messages back and forth because the rep simply refused to accept that anything was wrong. She was just trying to get rid of me with a lot of nonsense and irrelevant copy/paste info. I eventually asked her to pass it on to someone else, was told the problem was fixed and asked to close the case. When I responded the problem hadn't been fixed, they admitted it and said they didn't know when it would be. So why are they trying to get me to close it as 'resolved'? 

If such a simple thing is so time consuming, then it must be an absolute nightmare dealing with CS over a F&F claim. Like you said, you have better things to do! I've read more than one story here on the CC where a guest claimed there was a gas leak. In one case, the host said that there was no gas supply at that apartment, but he had to hire a gas engineer to come round and write a report that there was no gas. I doubt he got reimbursed for that, let alone for his time dealing with the matter and the lost income from the suspension. And that was before Airbnb changed their policy to encourage even more of these stupid claims.

[Elaine701]

@Huma0 

Well, for what it's worth, the complaint ticket was just closed, with no message or explanation whatsoever. 

I suppose I'll just have to wait to see if they deduct anything from the next payout. Yes, I know, I could ask, but poking the hornet's nest is probably not wise. Yet. 

[Huma0]

@Elaine701 

Mmm. Well, let's see. 

Not sure why they have to be so cloak and dagger about it.

[Elaine701]

@Huma0 

Surprise surprise. Now our listing is "suspended" pending "investigation" (After the issue was "closed"). We've already proven their first claim as false beyond any doubt. But according to CS, it's something different now. They just can't tell us what it is. 

Right, then. 

God I really don't want to quit Airbnb. I just want them to enjoy their 15% and leave me alone. 

[Elaine701]

@Huma0@Catherine-Powell

So this morning at 6:22am I receive this email from Airbnb "safety":

Dear Elaine,

I’m <name removed> from Airbnb’s Safety team. The Safety team's role is to help protect and ensure the safety of the entire Airbnb community.

I’m contacting you because we received a report regarding your recent reservation <booking code removed> and I’d like a chance to speak with you about what happened.

I’ll give you a call on August 21 at 9:00 AM GMT +2 as we value your perspective and would like to hear any details firsthand from you.
If that time doesn’t work for you or if I should reach you at an alternative phone number, let me know by replying directly to this email.

I’m in the office from 3:00 AM to 12:00 PM GMT +2.

While your account access is limited, you won’t be able to receive new reservations. You also won’t be able to book reservations as a guest during this time. We may also have to cancel upcoming reservations as a precaution, but cancellation penalties won’t apply.

You can review our Community Standards at:
airbnb.com/standards

If we don’t hear from you within the next 72 hours, we may take further actions on your account.

I hope to discuss this with you soon.

Regards,
<name removed>

And I respond with this at 6:35am:
Yes, no problem. 9:00 will be fine for us. We would like this resolved as soon as possible. 

At 9:14am, I again respond with this:
Hello <name removed>,
It is 09:14. We are awaiting your call. If it is not possible for you at this time, please tell us when it is suitable for you.
Thank you. 

At 10:13am, I respond again:
Hello again <name removed>
It is now 10:13. We have been waiting for over 1 hour for your call. 

As much as we would like to resolve this issue and welcome speaking with you about it, I hope you can appreciate that we will need to move on with the tasks of the day. 

Should you decide to call later, you may not reach us at a moment when it is practical to engage this discussion.

If your schedule changes, then please indicate what time is convenient for you, and we will make every effort to be available. 
Many thanks

It is now 13:48. And nothing. No response at all. I've opened a support ticket asking them to alert the appropriate department.

It looks like what I've feared all along may have come to pass. Suspension or delisting for an F&F, and as feared, Airbnb cannot or will not respond.  Precisely as others have posted here. 

[Huma0]

@Elaine701 

Oh no. Definitely one of the MAJOR problems with these cases is that it's impossible for you to contact the Trust & Safety team yourself. 

Have you had any kind of response yet?

[Elaine701]

@Huma0 @Catherine-Powell 

Yes, Airbnb called me "out of the blue" (didn't set a time or anything, just called). I was out and about. Not the best moment. 

As it turns out, the guest had made several claims, all of which I was able to irrefutably prove false.

It really encourages loss of faith in people when they behave this way. I'll try not to let it push me too far to one side. 

So, they've un-suspended the listing 👍

Thank you, Airbnb, for doing something right for a change. Well, perhaps not the best execution, but right in the end. 

[Huma0]

@Elaine701 

Well, I am glad it has been sorted, but hosts with your kind of standing should not have to jump through these hoops and deal with this nonsense. You have better things to do, e.g. being a good host...

[Emilie]

@Elaine701 Thanks for all the feedback on how this situation unfolded and was handled, I've made sure the right team got it. I'm glad your listing was restored and that all was resolved in the end, but really appreciate all your comments here! 🙏

Emilie

[Helen3]

Sorry @Elaine701  thats simply not true. You are absolutely allowed to have outside CCTV as long as declared and to use evidence from it to prove guest damage .

[Elaine701]

@Helen3 

That may be technically true. But as often exhibited, in practical application, it seems to be at the discretion of whomever is handling the complaint from the guest.

There are numerous hosts who have been penalised by Airbnb following guests claiming cameras that are either fully declared, or don't even exist in the first place. 

[Amanda660]

@Elaine701  how are things going?

 I too went through this last year with a  F&F and an unexplained suspension.  A very stressful week until Air ruled in my favour - it’s madness trying to fight your corner when you don’t even know why you’re suspended. 

[Elaine701]

@Amanda660 

No response. Any professional organisation would at least respond and say "sorry, we're working on it" - or something. But not this one. 

Meanwhile, I have dates to fill. Right now, it's up for grabs on other platforms. Snooze, lose...