unreasonable guest refund

[Bram8]

Hello

I had 2 young women as guests. It all started good. They sent a message that they loved the apartment. They stayed 3 nights. The day of their check out I had to go in the kitchen of the apartment to change the bended kitchen top with a granite one. It was planned for after their check out, but things didn't go as expected and technicians arrived at 7AM in the morning. I didn't let the technicians inside so early in order to allow my guests sleep a bit in the morning. I could keep the technicians outside until 8:30AM and then I let them in. Nobody went to the bedroom or bathroom, just the kitchen. The whole work took about 15 min and the guys left(they coudn't do much as the granite they brought was already broken).

The guests woke up. I apologized and I offered 3 things in below order:

1. free breakfast (they said ''no'', because they had breakfast food from previous day)

2. late check out (said ''no'', because they made their daily plan already)

3. A night of extra stay for free(refused, because one of them has to go to work)

10 min later they came to me telling me that I ruined their day, so they want to leave immediatelly and it is fair that I offer them a refund for 1 night.  I politely refused and advised them to contact Airbnb instead.

I left the place and an hour and a half later I noticed from outside that the windows are open. I assumed they left as they said and I went inside to turn the heating on. They were having a breakfast. Menwhile I noticed that they put the heating thermostat to 22 C while keeping the windows open(outside temperature 15C). I felt like being squeezed and I told them if they ask a refund at least they should either turn the heating off or close the windows, as heating is costing me money.

After their check out they filed a refund request with AirBNB.

This happens for the first time to me. What are my options now.

Thanks in advance for your replies. 

[DragonflyHill-Collective0]

Your options are to provide a partial refund, or no refund. If you offer a partial refund, they can either accept or refuse it. If you refuse their initial request, or if they refuse your counter request they can escalate their concern and someone from airbnb will make  a final decision. It usually requires photographs and evidence. 

[Gerry-And-Rashid0]

@Bram8

The onus was on you to tell the workmen that the property was occupied until x hours that day and not enter the property. The offers you made were not really ones that they could make use of on their last few hours in your property. And, offering a free night when people have travel plans is not a solution.

You then entered the property a second time without their permission and had a go at them about heating.

Overall you handled this poorly and should learn from the experience. Think of it if you were a guest.

I do believe you should have offered them a partial refund for the final night.

Hope that alternative view of what happened helps in some way

[Bram8]

Hi

I disagree for the refund and basically everything you said. Our rates are low. We offer a lot of added value for the price. After every guest I clean 2 hours+wash and iron all the sheets, towels AND pillows. What I earn from AirBNB certainly doesn't cover my expenses. It doesn't compensate for the enormous effort I do.

It isn't only about money. It is principle. I will not let a guest chew me, because they find the opportunity. If she would leave immediatelly I would offer her asked refund, but she stayed till the end using all the complimentary things I offer. She showered, ate, heated the place... It was clear that she liked the place and enjoyed it. It isn't for free. They have to pay for it.

If the same would happen to me I woudn't be bitching like them. I would think that they are just people like me trying their best to make me happy. I would simply accept the apology. I can't imagine myself trying to squeeze money from a woman with a child doing everything to make me happy. I would think it is unfair to use her property, make expenses for her then ask refund just because she had some issue for 15 min the morning I leave. Thanks Allah I am a better person than that!

I was expat for many years and stayed in different hotels around the world(mostly 4 to 5 stars). I can tell you that unexpected things like this happen even in nice hotels. Wherever there are people mistakes are being made on daily basis. I don't jump on every opportunity to squeeze money even from big chains. 

I expected that they show some appreciation for the effort we make for them. I didn't see that. I am not a professional hotel company. I am just an individual opening her house to people who need accomodation. In my world full with imperfections I try to offer clean, comfortable place and friendliness. I never promise a flawless stay. I am just a human.

[Helga0]

I would be severely pissed, if I get up in the morning, last morning, with all the stress of departure, to find work in progress in my apartment. As it is rented as a whole apartment, it belongs to the guest for the duration. 

It happens, that you have to enter, but you have to ask first. The guest may say no. My sister said no in a hotel, when they wanted the plumber to enter. We had guests flooding the apartment underneath, who refused the plumber - legally that's the guest's right. 

If you take away part of their rights, you should compensate them. Or Airbnb will. 

That you work hard, has nothing to do with it. Maybe they work hard too and had their ladt day disrupted. 

[Bram8]

Helga

They were asked if we could enter. They said yes (unwillingly, but they said it). I offered them compensations. They told me they will think which compensation they will take and 15 min later(that was the amount of time we were in) they informed me that they want a refund instead of my 3 offers. If they would leave immediatelly I would gladly give them the requested refund. No they stayed extra 3 hours(they left at 11 instead of 12)! 

If AirBNB offers them a refund for me this would only mean that AirBNB does not protect the host, but only the guest. I will not play this game and I will stop hosting the moment they are offered a refund. 

Thanks anyway for your reply. Ity is interesting to know all those opinions.

Regards

[John-and-Heather0]

@Bram8

Many gigantic vacation rental properties do repairs while guests are in the unit--however, we view this as a way to stand out and provide superior service.

I would agree with you if, say, the guest clogged the toilet so you called a plumber during their stay.  So if the guest causes the issue or requests that the maintenance issue be addressed immediately, then its okay to have the work happen immediately.

But if this is a planned upgrade, I do think that holding off until you don't have guests is the best practice.  I would refund a guest if construction "accidentally" happened during their stay.

[Helga0]

It's always easier, if you mention a potential disruption at the beginning or at least a day earlier. I mostly do nights, (no daycare at my place;-)  ) si I'd think a botched morning is worth 1/3 of a night. 

scolding them for heating with the window open was a tactical error. Even if I would have a hard time to swallow a remark about such behaviour, it must have infuriated the guest. 

Did you offer a free breakfast outside? Like "enjoy breakfast in the nice restaurant down the street, whilst we work and the breakfadt bill is on me!

if so, why not offer that as a refund? 

[Bram8]

Hi Helga,

Any breakfast, inside or outside woudn't be a problem. Also refund woudn't be a problem if they would do it in an elegant way. For me it was more that they were trying to get profit from the situation. It was the way they threat me rather than what they ask.

Especially that they wrote a dishonest review(they said I was late, but they forgot to mention that they were late themselves for 1-1.5 hours and they didn't inform me their exact arrival time. We told them in advance that it takes us 20 min to arrive at a place after informing us. They didn't inform.  As a result they had to wait a whole 20 min! They probably assumed that I am waiting behind the door all day to hand them the keys. They also didn't apoligize for being late. ). For clenliness they have 3 stars! I don't think they were ever in a cleaner space than mine. This is dishonest. I don't refund such people a single cent. If AirBNB decides to do so I am gone from this platform. Surely I will find other renters.

They clearly saw my effort to please them and they went ahead to write a bad review. 

We live in Belgium. Services are difficut to get and low quality here. Services arrive in wrong hours or days, they do bad job etc. That day they needed to hire a lift to put the surface upstairs. The permission for lift is granted from the police and it was until 10 that morning.  I would love to cancel her reservation for that specific day, but then I get a big penalty for cancelling from AirBNB. Nice isn't it! Basically I was stuck.  This woman knows it, because she is from Nederlands(same story with the services there). She could very well show some understanding. If I would postpone the next available spot to place the kitchen top is end May plus I would loose the guarantee. If I leave the temporary kitchen top stay for so long I will have damage in the kitchen(the surface is leaking and bended, it keeps damaging the drawer).

If I had a flood and the guest wouldn't let me in I would go by force. Flood, if not intervened directly can cause big material damage. The guest stays there only for a day and they will never take a responsibility. I am not sure if AirBNB will. I wouldn't like to have damage of 10.000 euro just to keep a customer staying for 1 day and paying 70 eur! They might be at their right, but there is something called common sense too.

Kind Regards

[Helga0]

You had me translate and read the whole review and public answer. 

The review is not all bad, but the answer is damaging. 

In such cases: write your answer in a text program, shorten it over the next days, and when you only have 2 or 3 lines left, copy it in and publish. 

Your public statement should attract guests, mot make them wary to meet you. An excuse for the disturbance would be best and a vague statement that you regret that your spontaneous offer of recompensation was not taken. Without details. 

In such a case, given that they paid 75 Euros and their day is ruined, I'd offer to take a nice long breakfast outside, come back later for shower and packing and not be bothered by the noise. 

That can't cost more than 30 for 2 and they would start the day in good spirits. 

(I have done that, sent guests to have dinner in my favourite bistro, when the dishwasher broke down, and paid the bill at my return. They stayed 25 % under the indicated limit and left me a glorious review plus come back at their next trip)

[Bram8]

Hi Helga

Their review is dishonest about being late. For clenliness they gave me low stars.

It is not all about making the customer happy. Let me explain you how it is financially for me:

I own this apartment and I rent it only AirBNB for now. If I rent it regular I will get 800 eur. Currently this place with AirBNB is costing me 800eur rent+350eur utilities. After every guest I wash linen and I clean for 2 hours. For every night I get 72 eur from airbnb of which I have to pay 30% income tax to the government. In this case I need to be almost fully booked just to meet the ends and I am not even counting my work hours. Starting from April my city imposed other regulations where I have to spend 3000 eur on top to comply.  Can you imagine that I will start offering free meals in bistros for customers? They will be certainly happy, but my wallent won't be. 

If I wash charging 150 eur a day I would be bending to please these people, but with current figures I can only offer them a sincere apology, inexpensive breakfast and thats it. I don't know where you live, but at my place that is the reality.

I rather have customers with realistic expectations. They are boking a very clean fully equipped apartment for an inexpensive price. They should set their expectations correct. I don,t want people expecting pampering all the time for the little money they pay me.

You are right about the review. It is not the corporate review I had to give. Honestly I value my freedom to say whatever I want more than the money I will possibly make. It is part of me being a Turk: I have no problem whatsoever to say what I think.

[Bram8]

Hi again Helga,

I just forgot to say that I appreciate your answers. You have a point. All you said is the way how hosting should be.

On the other hand I explained the reasons why I can't provide that level of service. It is unrealistic. AirBNB puts all the liability on us, hosts and they provide little to no support to me as a host. I feel like the weakest link. It is so easy to squeeze me: bad reviews, money taken away without my consent...

I tried to list the reasons why this AirBNB model is unrealistic for Belgium:

1- In Belgium taxes are high, our profit is small. We can't keep services at highest level.(this is the reason why we can't get good services too. Companies are understaffed to be able to cut the costs)

2- I am a mother of 3 small kids. I don't have all the time in the world to serve people like they expect. I can't provide hotel level flawless service. She was expecting that I stand behind the door to hand her the keys: not possible. Previous day I had a customer arriving at midnight(2 hours after my latest check in time). I wake up at 6 every morning. 

3- Our liability is high(we have to maintain the place all the time). I can't allow my place being flooded and have a customer not letting me in the apartment. NO way! The customers rent for few days and they have little to no consern for maintenance. I can't always fit the maintenance calendar with AirBNB calendar. Cancelling a reservation on AirBNB is hell! A long term renter would appreciate that I put an expensive granite worktop for them. AirBNB customer only complains.

4- We compete with people who rent their own homes on AirBNB. I have to keep my prices close to their level. Anything they get is a profit for them. In my case I have to deduct all the costs and taxes. 

At the end renting on AirBNB might not seem like the most optimal business model for Belgium. I enjoyed AirBNB for all the interesting people I met, but there is no way to keep up the level of service the hotels provide. Obviously many customers expect that. If they don't get it they damage with bad reviews. 

Regards

Birsen

Kind Regards

Birsen

[Helga0]

@Bram8,

I host in Paris, where according to the last numbers I read somewhere, are the most airbnb hosts. We have taxes too, and administration if you run a business is hell on earth, not to mention the costs. 

But that has nothing to do with the initial fact:  you offer on airbnb, so airbnb rules apply, you offer a full apartment, so your renters have some rights, like not to be invaded in the morning. No talk about the benefice of granite tops or taxes will change the fact, that you took away part of the rights you had already sold to them and they were not pleased about it. 

If being gracious every day to everyone is too much effort, renting on an annual basis would be a better solution. Anyway, cities crack down on full apartment rentals to tourists everywhere, as it takes living space for the population off the market. It's a doomed business model. In Paris, the town controls, new laws apply; in London you can only rent 90 days that way. In a few years, there will be only room rents, business rentals with permits, submitted to hotel regulations and a few weeks a year of renting private homes during the owner's holidays. 

[Bram8]

"If being gracious to everyone every day is too much effort....."

no Helga it is absolutely not too much effort. I come from Turkey. I grew up in an environment where helping people for free is a culture. If somebody knocks my door and asks for help I will take them in and feed them. Then I will thank them for visiting. That is my culture. I explained you with math that actually airbnb is not making me earn money. I do it to meet people. I am gracious they visit. I expect that they are grcious that I host them. I dont expect that they bitch because I do need to make a repair.