Protests Riots and Black Lives Matter

[Stan-and-Jan0]

I am quite beside myself with disgust and disappointment that Airbnb would enter the fray of political turmoil by supporting an organization who's stated mission is not only a lie but as they demonstrate daily, the protests and ensuing riots one has to know that it's not about racial equality. I will get into a long diatribe here but I'll just say that every time I see BLM box on the website with a donate button, I have to wonder if anyone at Airbnb actually knows what BLM stands for and what their true mission is. Look at what's happening in Seattle right now. It's really quite disheartening.

Very little respect left for this company.

[Yadira22]

Hi @Fred13 

Hope you are well. 

Before, I would like to mention that I agree conceptually speaking capitalism is probably the one which aligns more closely to my personal belief but with anything else in life, there may always be something to be discussed and improved on. 

I will quote the above from your statement which I do not agree. 

"Capitalism (or whatever you want to call it) is the direct descendant of democracy. Two central foundations of 'capitalism' is the recognition of private wealth (includes property), and the adherence to equal opportunity, but not results."

I recognise that from a legal point that under the equal opportunity act; able-body ness, gender as well as race identification is protected but realistically not from a commercial stance as discrimination is very much apparent. If it truly did then why would so many companies need to address the "gender pay gap"  for example, because this alone was only outwardly addressed at a large-scale commercial level in 2018.

From a capitalist side, the gender pay gap explained. 

Source: https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap

In this report, it showed results being different across the group within men and women (gender being the main varying factor), even within controlled groups and the " analysis on the impact of lost wages on lifetime earnings. By calculating presumptive raises given over a 40-year career, we find that women in the uncontrolled group stand to lose $900,000 on average over a lifetime." Meaning that even in controlled groups where by no other factor existed apart from gender being the varying one,  results still indicated this inequality existed,  the report further went to report that both advancement and representation of women in leadership was another barrier. 

If equal opportunity truly existed there would be no defined segment of society necessarily better or worse off,  it would be variable, for context no trend of one gender being paid more over another would exist, let alone one segment of said gender (eg Black women, or Indigenous women who showcase a further gap in this gender pay dispute.

Unless you believe that women contribute less than men to commercial businesses which could also be a reason for explaining this disparity, not my opinion personally and I doubt yours but this is just put there as to circle the discussion from both sides. 

[Fred13]

@Yadira22 I believe your view of the world is base on the premise that since all humans are basically equal, it stands to reason they should all achieve equal results in the long run, if given the same opportunity. Not so simple.

    Imagine the differences among humans in intellect, manner, ability, quickness, health, parenthood, determination, commitment, culture, religion, etc. Every human is the result of an infinite combination of forces which results in a wide spectrum of competitive 'effectiveness'.  

    Over time the differences in results will inevitably will arise among individuals and even groups of individuals sharing somewhat similar talents, and then this is when political interference will become necessary, to offset the disparities among not only individuals but groups of individuals. This is a classic example when democracy comes to the rescue. We see this every single day, via political schemes that are nothing short of redistribution of wealth or quotas imposed on some but not others. 

    It is not evil, it is understandable, for when one segment of the population stays too far behind (despite even given more than enough opportunity), stopgap measures will inevitably have to come into play. IF for no other reason modern societies are perpetually trying to be fair, and have grown kinder in the last 50+ years, and do believe giving everyone a good-enough decent living while they are 'forced' to be on this Earth.

   I am trying to keep the conversation at a conceptual level, though is so easy to plunge into specific examples that usually lead to endless micro arguments.

  One thing however I have never prescribe to is to pretend humans are equal, my intellect and experience on this Earth for 7 decades now, tells me otherwise. Still doesn't stop me for constantly offering a helping hand to those with a lot less chance than I, regardless of reason, specially if they approach me with genuine human kindness and respect.

/Love to continue this tete 'a tete, but the true 'master' (aka wife) is telling me it is time to go to the island and finish some last-minute projects. Be back in a few days.

[Yadira22]

Hi @Fred13 

quoting from your previous statement : 

« @Yadira22 I believe your view of the world is base on the premise that since all humans are basically equal, it stands to reason they should all achieve equal results in the long run, if given the same opportunity. Not so simple. » 

Nope. From my personal  understanding of what an individual brings to a business, it’s a combination of varying factors; both natural and learnt talent, knowledge, understanding, education (both conventional and otherwise), access to opportunity (because frankly not everyone is given a chance to shine) etc. Combined would not yield equal results, but if the current capitalist system allowed for « equal opportunity » there would be no trend, much less one showing a gender pay gap or even a race pay gap. 

The reason I used the gender pay gap as an example is solely to allow all individual woman (regardless of race) to be able to identify moments whereby elements of the system have failed them, furthermore this example highlights the reality that even within the female population, women of colour have been further separated from such « equal opportunity » you claim to exist. 

Gender wage gap

 source: https://www.glassdoor.com/about-us/gender-pay-gap-2019/

Noted: article goes to suggest that Economists estimate U.S. pay gap could close by 2070, if current factors remain unchanged. Progressive, right? 

Racial wage gap 

 source: the business inside website.  

And you may argue that democratic changes have come about as to counteract these, slowly and consistently but...

 

Source: https://money.cnn.com/2016/09/20/news/economy/black-white-wage-gap/

Article says the gap has gotten worse, even when considering the natural inflation which would occur, monetarily favouring one race over another. However, race is not a skill or characteristic which affects market value as it relates to wages. 

And don’t even get me started on implicit bias. 

Conclusion- all humans are equal.

But racism is a much more complex reality and not simply limited to racial slurs, prejudice, profiling and discrimination. It is also a systematic issue, internal (i.e. internalised racism) etc, and talking about it will open the space for not only the sharing of experiences, but the the desire to appreciate one’s reality is different to another’s and it’s ok to not understand but instead learn, seek further enlightenment via education and channel for self evaluation and perhaps change.  

Regardless the goodness of your or my heart or the intentions behind your or my actions, we could always be better humans, this is aimed at all reading this. 

Sidenote: honestly thank you Fred for helping others when possible, as humans we should be lifting each other up. Stay safe.

@Sarah977 i could already see height being a factor when considering job promotion. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[Melodie-And-John0]

Interesting and disturbing stats @Yadira22 , unfortunately they are not totally surprising except notable that having the first dark skinned American President in office for 8 years didn't change much in those regards.  At the end of the day, laws and lawyers may lead a horse to the water, they can't make it drink.  Each and every human must choose its path and even with equal choices by law, the variety of priorities within that circle folks choose are endless and unintended consequences are always in play.   

Legal Doors are open today that haven't been in this decade, century or ever in some cases. The next great equalizer in free nations is truly opportunity not laws and before Covid came to town, we were on our way to trending in far more positive directions with respect to pay and prosperity for Women and Minorities in the USA over the last 2 years than in the last 10.   It wasnt any one law or one president that did that, it was a strong economy and we need that back again to continue creating new foundations and footings to replace the age old barriers . 

The answers that end racism and disparity in free nations really are universal, empower all people to be great but don't require them to attain statistical greatness.  Achievement is 100% perspective not statistically significant or classifiable.  I know what it looks like when I see it and we were seeing it.  We could easily end up chopping our own hands off to spite ourselves if we are not careful.  New laws without financial prosperity wont save lives at all it will cost many more and bankrupt us for generations at the same time.   Just my humble opinion, have a great day, JR

[Yadira22]

Hi John for comprehension (my own) will tackle your statement as you presented it. 

Note: Italic and bold is from your own previous statement. 

Interesting and disturbing stats, unfortunately they are not totally surprising except notable that having the first dark skinned American President in office for 8 years didn't change much in those regards.

What does Obama have to do with this, this has been an ongoing systemic as well as systematic concern and issue for centuries, we are talking about Racial oppression by disparity in wages alone, even if actively tackled, 8 years is not a very long time for such a feat. 

At the end of the day, laws and lawyers may lead a horse to the water, they can't make it drink.  Each and every human must choose its path and even with equal choices by law, the variety of priorities within that circle folks choose are endless and unintended consequences are always in play.   

Almost all states have adopted discrimination laws related to employment, with protection against discrimination based on various factors, such as race, gender, age, marital status, national origin, religion or disability. 

Source: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/note/join/2012/462439/IPOL-FEMM_NT(2012)462439_EN.pdf

Hence it protects me as an individual and job/employment status regardless of any discriminatory belief that may exist but not the value of my pay check with respect to it. With regards to legal reference, unless it's explicitly defined, everything else is open to interpretation. To use your analogy its similar to leading the horse to a water source and realising there is no water, yet questioning why the horse is not drinking and asking if it's still thirsty, logically speaking something important is missing there. 

Each and every human must choose its path and even with equal choices by law, the variety of priorities within that circle folks choose are endless and unintended consequences are always in play.   

100% especially within a capitalist society, but here both you and I are referring to the individual and not the collective population within said race-  point is irrelevant as per the purpose of this discussion. 

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[Yadira22]

Legal Doors are open today that haven't been in this decade, century or ever in some cases. The next great equalizer in free nations is truly opportunity not laws and before Covid came to town, we were on our way to trending in far more positive directions with respect to pay and prosperity for Women and Minorities in the USA over the last 2 years than in the last 10.   

Exactly "opportunity" 

Regarding the "positive directions with respect to pay and prosperity in the last 2 years” did the USA not roll back and finalised regulation protections for transgender Americans against sex discrimination in health care, like this week? Meaning that healthcare professionals can legally deny any trans-person medical assistance. 

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/08/us-has-officially-entered-first-recession-since-200... 

Georgia's anti-abortion law of 2019.

Individually I can say that for my body alone I adhere to specific ideology (irrelevent to discussion if pro-life vs pro-choice) but realistically there has been no recorded history of illegal abortion to tell, without the continuing demand for women, despite it being illegal. Meaning that regardless of laws, demand is still there and should therefore be safe and carried out within a secure, clean environment and by a trained medical professional, otherwise it will be done so by an "alleyway doctor" putting many lives at risk.

The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one-third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.

We could both appreciate the impact formal and unconventional education, and/or work obligations as well as the need to take care of a dependent (or pay for it) could affect an individual's personal economy, and yet this accounted for 74% for abortion needs. However the Georgian state decided against this and this would have further separated individuals from that “equal opportunity” the capitalist system supposedly with-holds.

Source: https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2005/reasons-us-women-have-abortions-quantitative-and-quali...

The right to health is and should be treated as a human right! 

New laws without financial prosperity wont save lives at all it will cost many more and bankrupt us for generations at the same time.   

How? This is a real socio-economic issue which needs to addressed at a federal legislative level, yes but is to be controlled and implemented by the employer/HR/legal team of the company, not one paid with tax payer money. Similarly, it will open up to more training, perhaps job/employment opportunities and increase both engagement and retention. 

Many papers I have read look into the disasters relating to this but as with anything, small progressive changes should be the way to go when tackling a huge issue. According to the Harvard Business Review- Managers need to establish a list of defined priorities around closing the gender pay gap. Based on what we’ve heard from companies, these priorities may be things like minimizing the overall increase in the wage bill, capping raises to individual employees in percentage terms, maintaining pay differences across job categories to reflect different job responsibilities and to incentivize good performance, avoiding large discrepancies with the external job market, and paying women fairly in the context of the firm.

These priorities should then be converted into quantitative goals in a raise allocation process. The result is called a constrained optimization problem — which can be solved mathematically. Research found that targeting raises to women whose pay is driving the gap, and taking managerial objectives like fairness and equality into account, those raises can close the gap more cost effectively than simply giving across-the-board, equal raises. This also makes the pay structure more transparent and more equitable.

Source: https://hbr.org/2019/01/why-companies-attempts-to-close-the-gender-pay-gap-often-fail

Benefits outlined

by the SHRM

Source: https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magazine/summer2019/pages/closing-the-gender-pay-gap.aspx

-According to a 2017 study by McKinsey & Co. It found that businesses in the top quartile of gender diversity within their executive ranks were 21 percent more likely to see above-average profitability, suggesting that if enough companies embrace these changes then there will be an economic bloom.

From Personnel today

Source: https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/six-in-10-women-consider-gender-pay-gap-when-job-hunting/

-61% of women take an organisations gender pay into consideration when job searching, suggesting larger pay gaps could be missing out on talent.

- Equality and Human Rights Commission (2500+women part-took across varying industries) also found that 58% of women would be less likely to recommend their employer for having a gender gap

- Half would diminish motivation and commitment to their role, which could affect moral, productivity and other elements of their role.

-80% of women and 69% of men would be willing to take action to help reduce employer’s pay gap.

In 2019, Intel announced it had reached pay parity for genders globally (2.6% and 0.7 in the USA), including wages, bonuses and stock-based compensation. Turnover at Intel dropped since upon said announcement, reported by Overcash. Individual stock value dropped by about 1%, the next day.

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[Yadira22]

Conclusion, women (regardless of race) are paid less than the Caucasian men in the USA on average, women of colour even less so, this is not because of “equal opportunity” and “different priorities”. This is wrong and yet is only one tiny example of how racial systematic oppression (within the main context of this discussion) can rear its ugly head within one stance of employment alone, this is not even considering within welfare, education, housing etc. Suggesting quite frankly that racism is very much a prominent issue in society.

....

John you said “Interesting and disturbing stats @Yadira22 , unfortunately they are not totally surprising…and so much of it is unintended (in Sarah’s response)…” and went off in a tangent to justify it because of the war and how men’s exposure to technology made it worse during the war, etc. At least to me, it translated as such:

“It’s bad and I acknowledge it but its ongoing and hard to fix so… (and then enter reasons as to not fix it)”

This highlights perfectly what social privilege is about, occurs and how dismissing it could be and so damaging to others, yet also so subtle and finally it genuinely feels as if you were listening to respond and not to understand. Just some tough love for you, no offence intended. 

Personally, I am not asking you to join the BLM movement etc, because all I want and probably many others will agree is for you and everyone else reading this to actively look within yourself as to see where you can seek for positive change- be it through education, self-reflection, listening to better appreciate other’s personal experiences and even constructive actions, etc. Because once again, no matter the goodness of your heart or the intentions behind your actions, the seeking for positive change and learning is a continuous process, i.e. you can never be too educated or too kind.

Post 3/3

[Lisa723]

@Yadira22 my hat is off to you. Your stamina is amazing.

[Sarah977]

@Yadira22  There is even inequality where it isn't obvious at all except to those who make a study of such things. I once read a book about the fact that tall men and women are promoted to higher positions, will be chosen from among many equally qualified candidates for a job, etc, over short people. This had nothing to do with race or nationality at all. It was simply the fact that taller people seem to command more respect or are unconsciously seen as more powerful.

[Melodie-And-John0]

So much of it @Sarah977 is unintended and in some cases necessary like certain height or other physical characteristics for certain jobs.  Just look at what sending our men off to war for a few hundred centuries did to unbalance the equality scale.   It did what it was intended to do, protect that which was most precious to our families, communities and nation, Our Women and children, that was noble.  Unfortunately, the laws of unintended consequences kicked in at the same time.  Only men were in positions to be War hero's, victors and leaders.  Men were exposed to the latest training and technology and sat at the desks and tables where the most important governmental and military decisions were being made.  The same can be said for trades and other jobs, too dangerous to expose our most precious resources, our women and coming generations directly.  There is a price for that that goes along with the benefit of not dying on the job (hence one of the stats that women havent wanted to enjoin, Men die younger than women). 

Anyone remember Geordi La Forge or Admiral Christopher Pike from Star Trek?  They were the epitome of where we need to be when we can get there, a blind man with better vision and senses than a sighted one and a crippled one that still commanded Starships from the helm, not some remote control in a bed!   Technology has been a great equalizer and probably will open just as many doors as laws have and maybe we can all have access to nearly every job and none of us have to accept an early death as a reward for it.  Some things cant happen fast enough but we can keep trying until we get them.  Stay well, JR

[Juan63]

@Yadira22 Yadira the gender pay gap is fake, It's been disproved many times. I can't believe you and others still believe in this ridiculous idea. This has been discussed and disproven since the 70's. When you account for the type of jobs picked, hours worked, education and family planning the gap gets close to zero. In fact, in certain industries, like the medical field, woman make more than their males counterparts. @Fred13 

[Yadira22]

Hi @Juan63 

---

@Juan63 wrote:

@Yadira22 Yadira the gender pay gap is fake... disproven since the 70's...In fact, in certain industries, like the medical field, woman make more than their males counterparts.

---

So based on your logical reasoning

The gender pay gap does not exist, as women make more than their male counterparts within the medical field and other industries. Hun, sorry to break it to you but (regardless of how "factual this is" ) your example would be one of the gender pay gap existing, it's just in favour of women vs men. 

[Juan63]

@Yadira22 No it wouldn't, any gap that exists is based on education, experience and life choices. But good try. Let's not pretend what you mean by pay gap. You believe woman get paid less than men for the equal amount of work because of discrimination. So yes, the pay gap, how you are referring to it, does not exist. Equal pay will never exist because equal work doesn't exist.

[Sarah977]

@Juan63  You seem to be determined to be wilfully ignorant. Male actors who are top box-office draws are paid far more than female actors who are top box-office draws. They are definitely doing equal work. The actress Jennifer Lawrence is one actor who has been vocal about this pay disparity.

[Stephanie]

Hiya everyone,

I just wanted to commend you all for being respectful of each others opinions in a very calm discussion. I know you don't need my approval whatsoever but wanted to share that it's fantastic to see. 

Thank you!