Are AirBnb host allowed to put a camera INSIDE a private guest house(No common/shared space)?

[Jacob629]

Here is the situation - Whenever I book airbnb, If I am staying more than a night, I like to get a place where I have the entire house to myself. In this case, its small guest house on the hosts property. I booked this guest house for two nights for my girlfriend and I. When we came to check-in, our host greeted us and gave a run down of the house rules. He then stated that there was a camera in the corner of the house overlooking the kitchen and living room area. He said he had it here because guests where not taking their shoes off when they were supposed to. That caused me to pause for a second... Wasn't really sure how I felt about that. 

Now mind you, the house is very small. Not sure on square footage. The kitchen + living room takes up 50% the square footage of the guest house. The other 50% is the bedroom/bathroom/shower. 

So my question is... Is this allowed? It's not a shared space, so there are no "common" areas in the guest house. We booked the full guest house. I went to go and cover the camera, but he left a bunch of notes on it saying "Don't cover it" & "You agreed to this in the listing." So I thought maybe I'd missed it in the listing. I went back and the description and there was nothing about an indoor camera in the listing. I checked the house rules. Only rule was "No obscuring video devices". But nothing about the placement of the camera INSIDE the guest house. I then checked the Health & Safety in the listing, and looks like he has several cameras on the property. But in the health and saftey section, he lists them as things like "walkway-front-E" and "Driveway-On-W&E" and then there was "Kitchen-On-S". 

So while it appears that it did mention a camera in a kitchen, how was I supposed to know that it was INSIDE the kitchen of the guest house I was booking? The host has several guest houses on the property, so that placements could literally mean anything. 

I feel like the host has violated AirBnbs rules on cameras, but I am not sure. He made it sound like AirBnb was ok with him placing the camera there to make sure guests took their shoes off... 

I have no problem with Cameras on premise. Like the cameras on the walkway, sure. The street, sure. I understand that and can't fault them for it. But Cameras INSIDE the guest house? Oh, and one other thing. This guest house has 8 large windows and the blinds that come down are basically see through. This place feels like it has zero privacy. That was just the icing on the cake of what felt like many potential privacy violations. 

[Kate867]

@Jacob629 .  Wow, this sounds like a very uncomfortable situation.  With regards to cameras, if there are any then they should be mentioned on the listing.  Generally they are permitted outside and in common areas.  Never in bedrooms and bathrooms.  It sounds as though your host has been trying to use ‘clever wording’ to get around this in your case.  In your position I would see these cameras as unnecessary and a complete invasion of privacy particularly given the ‘nebulous’ wording of cameras in the Hosts listing.  All disgraceful in my opinion.  In your position I would certainly contact Airbnb and discuss the cameras with them.  The curtains however are a different issue but in combination with the cameras will make you feel very exposed and uncomfortable.  I certainly would not book a place like this if I was reasonably aware of the circumstances.  I hope you reach a satisfactory resolution.

[Jacob629]

"clever wording" - I feel like that is exactly what that is. I am not the only one who has called out the cameras. Looking over the comments that others have left, many people have been surprised by the camera. The host always responds by saying "Well you should have read the details!" But again, it was never explicitly called out. Granted, I should have went through the reviews before I booked the place. But it was highly rated with a super host, so I didn't anticipate anything major like this.

[Sarah977]

@Jacob629  I would be very disturbed by this if I were a guest. To put up cameras inside a small private guest house in order to make sure guests remove their shoes sounds over the top controlling.

It is a guest's responsibility, though, to read all the listing info before booking, including those House Rules and Health and Safety sections Airbnb hides at the bottom of the listing page ( hosts hate  this, BTW, - it's bad for both hosts and guests if the info isn't read, but Airbnb turns a deaf ear to host complaints).

Can you post the link to this listing so we can see exactly how the host has worded the camera info?

Do be aware that if you report this to Airbnb that they will immediately suspend the host's listing pending an "investigation". So I don't know if you want to be responsible for him getting suspended, but I thought you should know the reperrcussions on the host end. Not saying he shouldn't be suspended, as those cameras are really invasive, but if it were me, I think I would just tell the host that either he allows the cameras to be covered during your stay or you will speak to Airbnb about indoor cammeras whose location is not made clear in the listing ad. 

Your other option is to leave- contact Airbnb and tell them why you want to cancel immediately. 

And however you handle it, I would mention this in the review you leave to warn future guests.

[Jacob629]

I would actually appreciate another set of eyes on this as it could be I missed something. I pretty sure I haven't, but i've read everything they have through and through several times now. I am only human though, so I could have missed it. 

The link to their listing is - https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/21119234

Also, if you look through their photos, when it gets to the photos of the kitchen/dining area, you will see the camera mounted on the wall in top left of the kitchen(right above the AC.) But it so small that it is VERY easy to miss if you aren't looking for it. 

I have certainly learned from this experience to check all of those details thoroughly, but with as controversial as having a camera in a residence would be, you'd think they'd be more proactive in actually listing it in there description than they have been. 

Side note, they do list "Security cameras on property". Which i've seen in other airbnb's I've booked. But on premise vs literally in the guest house is quite different.

[Sarah977]

@Jacob629 Well, he could have made it clearer, but he does say "Kitchen on N" in the list of camera locations. Which I assume means camera on the north wall of the kitchen.

So he does list it. And reading through  his listing, this host has made a real effort and done a good job to be very clear and descriptive about everything. So I don't get the sense he is trying to hide anything at all- he has mentioned the dog, the cats, etc- he's tried to disclose anything a guest could complain about or try to get a refund for.

(A photo isn't considered to be a disclosure of cameras, it has to be stated in writing, so that you didn't notice it in the photo isn't relevant)

I suspect the indoor camera has to do with more than guests taking their shoes off (although that he has chickens running around means that he might have had guesrs tracking chicken poop all over)- he has probably had incidents of guests smoking inside, or making a big mess, causing damages, things like that. 

I think you are just going to have chalk this one up to you not really having read  the camera locations when you booked, and asking  for clarification if you found it unclear. As I said, I find it odd to have a camera inside a little guest house, so if you can't live with it, I'd understand, but he is correct that he does disclose it. 

I really doubt that he is monitoring that camera during a guest's stay- hosts have better things to do than spy on guests. Especially since he has a number of cabins to look after and a farm to run. They would just provide proof if after a guest checked out he found evidence of breaking house rules. Which is likely why he put it there in the first place. He probably didn't start out hosting like that.

But you might tell him that the "Kicthen on N" is very easy to miss and that he should list the camera locations in a clearer manner and even mention them in the listing description itself, since Airbnb hides that info where many guests can miss it.

[Sarah977]

@Jacob629  P.S. You say that other reviews mention the cameras and the host's response that the guests should have read the listing. But you didn't read the reviews before you booked. 

You should always read written reviews before booking something. Star ratings are totally subjective and give you no information as to why those ratings were left. That holds true for both hosts and guests. I'm not going to assume that a guest was a terrible guest because another host gave them a 3* rating, unless there is a written review which explains the issues. As far as I know, that host might have been some micro-managing fusspot who downgrades guests because they didn't leave the place clean enough to eat off the floor, or because she could overhear them having sex. 

And some hosts rate all guests 5*s unless they trashed the place, even if the guest was objectionable because they want to be "nice". Reviews aren't intended to be either nice nor nasty, positive nor negative. They are intended to be honest, otherwise they are pointless. So I glean far more useful info from written reviews than from star ratings. It doesn't mean you have to read through all of someone's 300 reviews, but a 5 minute skim is worthwhile. 

And honestly, Superhost doesn't mean much either. There are only about 5 criteria for Superhost and they don't all have to do with being a great host. One is that you have to host at least 10 stays per year. So a host gets 10 bookings a year- does that make them a great host? 

And there are plenty of long-time great hosts who lost their Superhost status because one guest who got called out for partying and trashing the place left a 1* revenge review and tanked the host's 5* rating.

I've had Superhost status for years, and solid 5* ratings in all categories, but I am about to lose that status on April 1st. Why? As a punishment for not having 10 stays a year. Why don't I have 10 stays? Because I have a home share listing where guests share my kitchen with me and I have been responsibly closed to bookings due to Covid. So feeling it isn't smart or safe for either me or my guests to be sharing indoor space during a deadly pandemic will lose me Superhost status. 

I will still have a 5* rating, I'll still have pages of lovely guest reviews, I'll still have a 100% response rate, I'll still be a host who has never cancelled a guest's booking, but I'll be stripped of Superhost because I didn't help put any service fees in Airbnb's coffers for the past 2 years.

[John5097]

@Jacob629 I'm surprised more guest didn't complain about the camera. I had to read through about 20 or more to find the ones who did, and the host's response was abusive. 

The only thing I could find just said security cameras were on the property. But even according to what you describe, this listing doesn't make it clear  in the description. 

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https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/3061/use-of-cameras-and-recording-devices

What we don’t allow

• Concealed and undisclosed devices monitoring common spaces: Any device monitoring a common space should be installed in a visible manner and disclosed in the listing description.
• Devices located in or monitoring private spaces: Devices should never monitor private spaces (ex: bedrooms, bathrooms, or common areas that are being used as sleeping areas, like a living room with a sofa bed). Disconnected devices are allowed as long as they are turned off and proactively disclosed to guests.

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They should also make it very clear in the description guest can't wear shoes. Some people need to wear shoes. 

[Sarah977]

@John5097  It's in the Health and Safety section. He says he has cameras and lists where they are all located.

Aside from the fact that he really  should make that info more visible,as guests often don't drill down (neither do some  hosts, apparently 🙂 ), according to policy, he really only has to mention them there. 

 I would never book with a host who wrote the kind of scathing responses he does to anything less than a perfect review. And you'd think with all the reviews negatively mentioning the camera, he'd have figured out it was a good idea not to bury that info, but it seems he'd prefer to rake guests over the coals for mentioning it in the reviews, instead.

[John5097]

@Sarah977 

Ok when I clicked on "read more" beside the security devices it took me to the Airbnb policy page. Had to click on the "read more" at the bottom for the very vague and inaccurate locations. Their description fails to meet the policy as it needs to be made very clear. 

The policy also states that private areas include a sleeper sofa. (see post above for policy) And the description claims there are no cameras in the private areas, which would also be false. There was some mention of "kitchen" which would be a common area, but even that is misleading. Its reasonable to think a couch with sleeping option would be a private area. 

[Sarah977]

@John5097  Yes, but the camera is focused on the front door, not the living room. I think the host is walking a very fine line, though. 

In all of his responses to camera complaints, he claims that Airbnb suggested for him to put it there. 

I could understand having a camera like that in a big house that's at risk for parties, but it seems ridiculous to me in a tiny cabin for basically 2 people where the hosts live onsite. Host seems like real control freak.

Did you read the review where the guest said she was taken aback when the host knocked on the door a 8pm without any warning? His response was how could anyone give warning of a knock on the door? As if he couldn't have messaged or phoned first. 

[John5097]

@Sarah977 The responses aren't the listing description. The point is he hasn't made it very clear. It does mention kitchen, but also verified, as you said, they are monitoring the living room area which is also a private area per their listing description. A camera can't have that narrow of a focus. In his responses he tells one guest to never use Airbnb again for providing accurate review. These host simply need to follow policy and make it clear. They mention everything else in the description and require way more protocol from guest, such as providing DL, guest need to include check in time when booking, etc. This gives Airbnb host a bad reputation. "Cameras are located inside. Kitchen and living room." Is simple. Even then, though, the living room has a sleeper couch so would violate the policy as its a private area. 

[Kate867]

@Jacob629 @Sarah977 @John5097 … So, I have looked at the listing now.  Wow, these hosts do not take any criticism well at all do they?  Any negative reviews are responded to with long, ‘Hissy Fit’ and extremely unpleasant replies.  In general their reviews are mostly good, but it would also seem (seen in one review) that the Hosts do apply a lot of pressure to get that five star review from guests.  Airbnb allow cameras,  but state that they must be ‘clearly’ disclosed in the listing.. I did eventually find where they were mentioned but feel their locations, in particular the kitchen one, were a bit vague to say the least.  I also wonder how the Hosts get away with that camera seeing as there is a sofa-bed mentioned in the living/kitchen area so not really a common area at all times.  Also mentioned in some of their responses to reviews is that the camera faces the floor at the front of the door only… but they then go on to tell a guest off for walking through the unit with shoes on and that the camera is there to provide proof to Airbnb if anyone is smoking or damaging anything in the unit.  Right away this is a ‘red flag’ to me.  There is no way that camera is only watching the door!  The Hosts also mention the cameras are located as per Airbnb’s recommendation…seriously?  Airbnb have never advised me to install cameras, never mind suggest locations for them, and I can’t find anything in their ‘help pages’ to that effect either, only effectively what they do and do not allow.  I should imagine that many of their guests have complained directly to the hosts about this camera verbally but have been shut down right away with something along the lines of ‘they are mentioned, you did not read and Airbnb told us to put it there’.  @Jacob629 , I really appreciate your concerns as I really feel this Host is as @Sarah977  said,  is walking a very fine line indeed.  Any negative review you leave either in ratings and/or written comments is going to spark a very nasty response which to be honest won’t really affect you, but will be seen by their future guests and cast them in a very poor light indeed.  Having looked at their responses to negative reviews I would certainly not even consider staying there myself just in case an issue arose.

[Jacob629]

@Kate867 @John5097 @Sarah977 - For those that are curious, this is what their checkout message was before he reviewed me. I checked out yesterday and was on the road all day. Finally settling in today, about to compose my review for him. 

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Greetings,
Just wanted to thank you again for picking our home for your stay in Albuquerque.

As a gentle reminder, we will be grateful for a Review from you if you can make the time. These help us do a better job of Hosting and getting new Guests. We will also do one of you to help prospective Hosts know about you.

Please be aware that there are both public and private locations to make comments and that Air BnB is VERY strict about a Host’s average. They will remove Super Host for 4.7 or less and even shut down a Host for 4.3 or less (not like normal Hotel Ratings unfortunately).

We DO want to know what we can do better but if it’s not a glaring problem, please don’t hurt us with anything less than 5 in ANY category. The private section is a great place to offer ideas and suggestions too. We hope to hear from you.

Safe travels and … Thank you Again Jacob.

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This is certainly the most pushy someone has been when asking for a review. Feels like a mild guilt trip to me. And a "Please leave 5* public review, and give complaints directly to me". But based on the few negative public reviews they've gotten, i'd say they don't take criticism well. So I was just curious if any other hosts reading this often ask for high rating, or if you just let the cards fall where they may. I can understand why they'd ask, but wanted to get other hosts opinions on this part, too. 

I am still working on my review for them. 

**[Name hidden - Community Center Guidelines]

[Mark116]

@Jacob629   We've done it multiple ways....hinting about a 5 star review, asking guests to do a review, or doing nothing.   It is an unfortunate by product of Airbnb's policies, which the host is correct that basically anything less than a 5 star review hurts the host in multiple ways.

It's interesting that his message seems pretty canned, but if you never mentioned your issues with the kitchen camera maybe that is why.