How can Airbnb refund without getting details???

[Richard2261]

Ok, I'm pretty mad.  Airbnb refunded a guest who just left $30% which was almost $500usd.   These guests were a nightmare.  Neighbours complained about them being drunk, driving, climbing the 9ft fence we had, broke a door handle, broke a concrete part attached to a fence.....  So many issues beyond this. I knew they were going to be a problem before they showed up because they wanted to cancel 4 days before their date but couldn't because of my strict cancellation policy so they were looking to recoup their losses I think.

One interesting thing is apparently all of them were deaf....but my wife and I talked to them in a video call when they arrived at our house.  This seems totally like a scam. They are even contacting us now to mail them back 3 open bottles of liquor which I checked and is illegal to mail to the US.  

In the end they apparently sent airbnb pictures that got them a 30% refund.  Airbnb won't explain the pictures to me or show me the pictures.  How does airbnb know they are even of my house if I can't confirm them.  We have the house deep cleaned before each guest so anything dirty would be from the guest.  I'm going to video the house before each arrival from now on.  Over 100 guests now, good reviews, and have never had this happen.   

Can anyone tell me if it's normal for airbnb not to share pictures in this situation or even contact the host before giving a refund like this?  I'm extremely pissed off and will definitely start using other platforms now because for years now I have only used airbnb. 

Thanks for any info

Richard 

[Room-X-Room0]

Wow. Sorry to hear this. I never had this happen however, if they did all the damage you say I would open a claim back. You have that right as well. I think Airbnb should tell you why the refund was giving at the very minimum. 

[Richard2261]

Yeah, I wish I could make the claim but I was away and got back 2 days after they left and my host told me the day I got back.  Unfortunately we had a guest arrive the day after they left so everything had to get ready for the new guests.  Airbnb won't do anything because I can't make a claim when there is a new guest already.  My host should have taken pictures the day the guest left.... 

At the very least airbnb should provide what ever the evidence is that the guest provided but because they won't, I bet that there are no pictures.... Funny, no complaints at all from the current guest that arrived right after they left....

[Kia272]

@Richard2261 I believe that the damage claim policy has changed, and that you now have 14 days to file a damage claim, regardless of if a new guest has checked in. I could be wrong, but I think that was one of the major changes to the Air Cover policy. 

I wouldn't waste time making videos of the property before guests check in. They can fabricate finding something in a dark corner or behind furniture that isn't on your video, and customer service doesn't take the time to review responses from a host anyway. 

Sorry these jerks came to stay and damaged your place. I hope you can avoid that in the future. 

Good luck, Kia

[Mary419]

@Kia272 thanks for your comment that making pre-arrival videos would not help. Not long ago there was a lot of buzz from hosts hoping that measure would protect them (https://community.withairbnb.com/t5/Airbnb-Updates/Our-guest-rebooking-and-refund-policy-explained/m...) and I agree if the guest and agent want to take money from the host the video would be at best a small chance to retain a payout and prove a host's innocence. The increasing number of guests feeling free to request a refund and the seemingly lax policies granting guests who ask a huge windfall are major factors in the loss of trust hosts have with this platform. I am personally shocked that I see things going even further this direction instead of self correcting with all these hosts looking to leave. I do not agree with the founders that we are all replaceable. 

[Sybe]

@Kia272 You're right, Hosts now have 14 days after the guest checks out to request reimbursement. It was mentioned together with the change for guests to report issues here https://community.withairbnb.com/t5/Airbnb-Updates/Our-recent-change-to-the-guest-refund-policy/m-p/...

@Mary419 shared the article posted after which answers some questions that were raised at the previous change, also a really useful post.

[Elaine701]

Be very careful about making claims against a guest through Airbnb. It can result in a much worse outcome (for you, the host). 

The guest always has the advantage in any dispute. Go forth with that wisdom in mind, and keep Airbnb out of it wherever possible. Or... learn the hard way. 

[Richard2261]

I haven't had problems making claims in the past.  I've only done it in extreme cases.  One example is when a group of guests got drunk and destroyed all of our patio furniture ($1500 in damage).  The only way I've made claims is when I have proof.  In that instance, I had video of them jumping on and destroying the furniture from our security cameras.  I'm really getting tired of dealing with large groups of 10-16 people which is what our rental is for and attracts.  Unfortunately in Cancun, we draw too many partiers and groups that are here for a quick good time and don't treat the house like their own.  

[Elaine701]

@Richard2261 

You had video? Of them destroying the furniture? That alone is a flagrant violation of Airbnb rules. I'm surprised you weren't delisted for that.

We are also in a popular vacation spot, and have a capacity of 8 pax. It does indeed attract those wanting to pack them in and party without boundaries. But I screen guests fairly rigidly and rarely have damage problems.

We do occasionally get the ones who book for say, 6 and then bring 10 (just had one of those).  I admit I smelled that one coming, but in those situations, I demand a hefty security deposit and so far, that's prevented damage, but it doesn't prevent them from making false claims to get a free holiday. We've had those too. 

Still, I'm reluctant to even host these types in the future, because it's just too risky. These types don't have any moral compass, and If they'd filed some false claim to Airbnb, they'd likely get a refund and we could be suspended or delisted, future bookings cancelled, etc.  It's absurdly tilted in the guest's favour. 

Airbnb is great at getting bookings, but it's risky. Keeping Airbnb out of it as much as possible helps minimise that risk.

But deliberately scaring off guests who appear dodgy is the most effective means I've found, minimises these problems, and minimises the risk of Airbnb intervention. 

[Richard2261]

Airbnb told me that outdoor security camera footage is allowable.  In Mexico, virtually every private house needs outdoor cameras for security protection.  In fact, most guests we have even asked for this because it protects them and their vehicles.  How would this be any different than all the hotels that have security camera's in their parking lot, or in the lobby?  These cameras are outside of the house.  You just have to disclose you have security cameras in the listing which I did plus check off the boxes in the listing that airbnb provides that shows you have security cameras.  So it is allowed.  

I too also screen vigorously and this is now our 6th year of hosting large groups.  To date, we have only had 3 groups that have been a problem out of well over 100 and in all 3 instances, it was the security cameras that saved us a lot.   

[Elaine701]

I assumed that if you had video of the guests destroying the furniture, then the cameras used would have to be able to view the furniture, which I presume was indoors. 

If the guest objected to that, your claim would likely be flatly refused, and likely suffer penalties as a result, regardless of what damage the guest did to your property. 

You are not allowed to surveil inner living spaces. Many hosts get canned for having cameras on the outdoor living spaces such as the pool area or terraces. 

[Huma0]

@Elaine701 

@Richard2261 stated that they destroyed the patio furniture, so clearly the camera was in an outdoor area.

In theory, hosts can have cameras in outdoor spaces. They just have to be disclosed. In that case, @Richard2261 is saying Airbnb did reimburse him because of the evidence.

The problem with the more recent issue is that the co-host did not take any photos/videos for evidence before the new guests checked in.

[Elaine701]

@Huma0 

Ok, yes, I missed that part about "patio furniture". 

Still, the camera issue has always been largely at Airbnb's discretion (and their "discretion" can be disastrous to even the best of hosts). There's plenty of stories here of hosts getting clobbered by guests claiming cameras, even when fully disclosed in the description, or even when the host has no such cameras. So, he got lucky. 

Also, in my view, it's probably a bit questionable to have cameras on the garden and pool area, as guests may choose to sunbathe naked or have other intimate activities in those spaces. I believe here in Spain, it's considered "living space" and it's actually illegal to surveil it in a tourist accommodation. 

But the point is that Airbnb involvement is risky. And I think even you would tend to agree with that.

Nowadays, we avoid Airbnb involvement whenever possible, and although it requires much more finesse in guest relations, it's so far been a successful strategy. And it's not as if we're miraculously free of dubious guests. We still get them from time to time. 

[Huma0]

@Elaine701 

Yes, I do agree that Airbnb involvement is risky. I often refer to it as Russian roulette. 

My experience of this was a guest who decided to go home early due to a change in her work circumstances, and was supposed to pay according to the long term cancellation policy, which she initially said she understood. Then she said she couldn't afford it and I agreed to refund her an additional amount but, instead of letting me deal with it, she contacted Airbnb and, long story short, the rep refunded her for the full stay, including the two weeks she already stayed. 

When I spoke to the rep, she couldn't give me any explanation of her actions, and just told me she couldn't reverse it and so I should request the money directly from the guest. The guest said she would pay me back at some later stage but, surprise, surprise, I never heard from her again. Every time I contacted CS about it afterwards (passed around reps who kept trying to close the case), they told me it was within the COVID EC policy. It had nothing to do with that policy and, even if it did, the guest wasn't eligible according to the policy, plus that doesn't explain refunding the weeks she already stayed. 

I eventually got my money back but I had to badger CS constantly for a month and it was very stressful.

At the same time, if you want to be reimbursed for damages and the guest won't pay, then you have to involve Airbnb. I've only put in one damage claim and I was amazed at how straightforward and easy it was.

So, yes, it's very hit and miss.

RE the cameras, it sounds like it is legal in Mexico, from what @Richard2261 has said, but pool areas are a tricky one in terms of privacy. Then again, from what I've read here, pools often seem to be the areas where guests party hard and cause damage.

[Elaine701]

@Huma0 

Wow. What a fiasco! Amazingly, you got your money back (eventually). Good on you. 

Anytime Airbnb has ever denied my claim against a guest, or given the guest a refund without explanation, they've cut off all further communication with me after the first time I enquire, they tell me it's final and close the case.  I can't get any further communication, no matter what facts or evidence I produce. Case closed. 

Since the last time I had any sort of claim against a guest, I've learned to just shut up and eat it. It's generally less expensive and certainly less frustrating to simply smile, thank them for choosing our place, and then write the truth in the review of the guest (while they'll write a lovely review of your place, because they think they've gotten away with it) . It's about the best you can (reliably) do. 

But again, I screen guests to the best of my abilities,  and though a few undesirables manage to make it through the gauntlet, we've been lucky to not have really horribly damaging guests since the last one, when Airbnb denied any compensation for their large scale damages, and wouldn't explain why. Case closed. 

So that was when it became "case closed" for me too. My MO is now "Just get me the bookings, stay out of the rest, and don't penalise me for screening out the high risk ones".

That's all I ask. I'm pretty easy to please.