Guests admit breaking my House Rules but won't leave. Airbnb are faffing and not enforcing them

[Yan49]

I've been hosting for several years on different platforms and have a couple of hundred reviews under my belt on ABB alone. My top listing is a premium property in the heart of London and because of the nature of the home, strict regulations and neighbour considerations I have set very clear House Rules which every guest needs to confirm they have read and understood in order to have their booking confirmed, by way of mentioning a "hidden" keyword I place at the very end of my House Rules section. One such rule is that should my home be overoccupied or used for a party, the guests will immediately be ejected without a right to a refund for the unspent nights.

I've not had any major problems so far, but although confirming they were on board with them, my (unfortunately, still current) guests broke that rule and another saying kids must be cleared by me first. They admitted by airbnb message to having 7 occupants vs the 6 max allowed, 3 of whom children, who are neither quiet nor well behaved. I immediately called Airbnb to notify them of this and they've been faffing for the last 24h. They did confirm the guests had broken my House Rules and I was within my right to cancel and keep the entire payout, but at the same time asked if I would make an exception and offer them a partial efund, which both me and my co-host declined to do.

Before going to bed, I once again emailed the case manager with a 2-point summary: 

1) terminate reservation immediately and remove guests

2) no refund of any kind

This morning I received a message from the lead guest stating some of the members had left and checked into a hotel and thay could provide me proof of booking, and if I would allow them to stay on. This was followed shortly after by an email from the case manager, stating the same and asking if in the view of the change of circumstances, I would allow the rest of them to stay.

It seems Airbnb are set of "fixing" this, whereas as far as I'm concerned, my House Rules are clear: break them are you're out.

Case gets passed on.

Second case manager - Randolph: "Right now, xxxx is not eligible for any refund, but I am reaching out to see if you would be willing to refund any amount to your guest. You do not have to, as this payout does belong to you, but any help would be greatly appreciated". I declined and expressed my will to have them removed with no refund.

Case Manager #3 - Megan: "I understand that you do not wish to have xxxx in your listing any longer due to the violation of the house rules. Generally, when a guest breaks a house rule, we do like to allow them a second chance to follow the house rules and save the reservation. The same respect as if a guest reports a travel issue, we ask that the host is given a chance to resolve this problem for them. Or if we can in situations like this, we attempt to alter the reservation for an early check-out and a refund for nights not spent in the listing. However, with your denial of any refund this is not an option. 

It seems like they're not getting the memo...

Case Manager #4 - Rose (seriously, I've never been able to get a new case manager assigned to a case before even when there was a claim for damages and the assigned case manager was off sick for 2 weeks they wouldn't re-assign it and it took 6 weeks): "It seems as though they have checked in the 4 guests into a hotel room and will be continuing the reservation as is. The guest has mentioned tha they will send in documenation showing the other guests checking in to the hotel for the remainder of the reservation". 

Holy crap, they really aren't getting the memo.

"and will be continuing the reservation as is."??  No they bloody well won't cause I'm calling the cops. The payout has already been issued and I'm booked out solid for nearly the next 2 months. I genuinely  hope they won't change their mind on their initial decision as they're notorious for doing and corner me into cancelling all future reservations and re-routing them directly through my website and completely switch to HA, Expedia and Booking. This is quite a large reservation and mine and others' experience is that they're more willing to "bend the rules" when large sums are involved. 

Airbnb, you don't own any property stock. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I'll be updating this in real-time as more info comes in.

[Anne405]

TRUTH..   I had to ask the filthy, smoking, rude actress Jena Malone to go, 5 weeks short.  She is a nightmare.    I am not asking for anything beyond excessive cleaning fees, the nights this horrible person was in my home paid, and not getting fined.  ABB is impossible to work with and the guy on my case can't string together a full sentence.   He wants "evidence" of pot smoking.   I have no picture.   Duh.  I hired a cleaner 9 days into her stay and she took photos 30 minutes after cleaner left to show how nicely she'd left things.  

I can't afford Portland if I don't do Air BB but I am so so so tired of them and the disrespectful guests.   98% of folks are GREAT.  2% make it hell.  

[Paul154]

Kelly is right on.  It amazes me that hosts believe they can kick out people (terminate the agreement) and get the unused days paid to them. I'm happy that they can get those days paid to them, but it goes against most legal thinking.

Airbnb is mimicking most legal ideas of housing. Courts often favor the tenent because the owner gets to word the contract. In this case, the "contract is so many days at a price"

The host is breaking this contract, so the host is not honoring his contract. Now, in absense of a contract, host will be paid for the number of days stayed.

Courts frown upon unearned income and disfavor  people who break contracts.

Guests stay you get paid,  You kick the guest out you don't get paid. Imagine the mess we would have if every host wrote some arbitrary rule and then said Now you owe me.

Sorry you have bad guests, but your only reasonable option is to kick them out and forgo the future income.

[Kelly149]

to be clear, I said that ABB doesn't believe in fines. I probably do.

BUT the question then becomes, what is the proper amount?? Much easier to just say: the guest goes & you don't get paid.

Hosts are rightfully offended by this because they have upheld their end of the deal (offered what they said they would offer & have taken their place out of contention to be booked by someone who would have behaved properly) but guests can unilaterally ignore clearly lined out items and do whatever they like and walk away out nothing more than repacking and heading down the road while the host has an empty place and a empty payout. Another guest coming along last minute and re-booking is a unicorn that may or may not appear.

This isn't a problem easily solved. But I think most hosts are upset about it bc they see no movement from ABB about this at all. How about if a guest is removed for non-compliance (verifiable) then that is noted in their public account? or they get removed from the platform? or at least can't tank my review rating?  How about a host should get paid SOMETHING (10,20,50%???), this could even be a credit in ABB host fees for future bookings? ABB has no skin in this game. The host is out the income, the guest still has the ability to review, ABB still has their fee. This is a triangle out of balance. The hosts who offer up significant personal property investments to the general public expect to be protected from bad actors. This isn't an unreasonable request. You can be sure that if there were hosts that completely ignored what their listing said it was and gave the guests significantly less than what they had been promised then they would not have a listing for long. Stands to reason that ABB would fine those hosts a cancellation penalty & other bad marks. It should be the same for guests.

[Yan49]

Oops, I accidentally wrote this as a reply to Paul. Re-posted properly.

[Kenneth12]

@Kelly149:  yes,  ABB needs to fix this.  A quick glance at stories from ABB employees on employment boards,  suggests that ABB is a mismanaged,  conflictual mess on the inside,  alas.  My current expectation boils down to the hope that ABB does not become the next eBay.

[Kenneth12]

@Paul154:  Uh... no.  Just no.
First,  STR= no tenancy (in most jurisdiction),  so different set of law.
It's the guest breaking the contract by violating rules.  
You can quite easily have a contract that says "break the rules,  you leave,  no refund."
ABB will not back you up on that,  leaving you with few options (pursue payment or legal action -- though if your filing fee is low,  why not get a local judgment and have it show on their credit report?).
If you're incorporated you could also credit report if you're set up for that;  or you could 1099-C;  all if you can find the debtor,  of course.

[Letti0]

@Kenneth12   My lawyer said to use the 1099 C rather than bothering with small claim court. 

[Yan49]

Hi @Paul154, Thank you for your input. I think you may be confusing a PENALTY with a FINE. 

Contracts are in place to formalise an agreement between two parties. Whilst I agree with you on the fact that the contract writer has the (potentially unfair) advantage here, this doesn't mean there shouldn't be any penalties should they not honour their part of the deal. 

I am subject to leasehold restrictions and stringent local authority regulations that limit the maximum occupancy of my home. By overoccupying, these guests are dropping me in it, for lack of better words. From a purely business point of view, they now represent a risk and need to be removed. This creates a vacancy that probably won't get filled. So who should pick up the bill: the host, who was clear and upfront about the terms, or the guest who knew they were going to be overoccupying and the penalties associated with it and chose to do it anyway? 

[Irene403]

Actually your process of thinking scares me. If a guest books a place and there are clear rules and they break them, why should the people who have cleared the calendar get penalized? Why should I lose money bc people don’t have common decency and try to get over by bringing additional guests? I have 2 luxury homes in Santa Monica and San Francisco and the minute I decide to rent, it gets booked. I kicked a guest out who decided to cook non stop even though it clearly list that they cannot cook. I don’t want my home smelling like people’s food. She continued to cook and stained my oven bc she left her boiling rotten broccoli cooking for hours on the stove. The day I called the police, she had left it unattended and the entire home had smoke everywhere. 

When people are honest and considerate, then there is no line to cross

[Yan49]

UPDATE

Well, wouldn't you know it - they have refunded them.

That's the short of it. For a more detailled read, I'll post up the complete thread with the various case managers and how it goes from "the payout belongs to you cause they have broken your House Rules so refund is at your discretion" to "they *stopped* breaking your House Rules after they got caught red handed so as you still asked to leave then, we are refunding them".

First though, my House Rules - so we're allon the same page. The I asked the guest to message me back confirming they had read them and understood them and they confirmed, copying and pasing them back to me:

• Check-in time is 3PM.
• Check-out time is 11AM

Thank you for choosing my home - I love getting to know my guests! So please don't be shy and drop me a line with an introduction. If you're stuck for ideas, this a good start:
- Your names
- Your background (occupation, interests etc)
- Your nationality
- Your age(s)
- The purpose of your visit
- Why you chose my home

I'm a very relaxed host, however there are a few house rules in place to ensure we're both safe and cherish a great memory of your stay. They're mainly common sense but here they are to clear any doubt. Please take a moment to read them:

1) ABSOLUTELY NO PARTIES OR EVENTS!

2) The house is strictly non-smoking and unsuitable for pets:
Smoking inside with the windows open, in the kitchen or in the bathroom with the vent on is still smoking in the house and will incur a £350 deep cleaning fee.
The floors are hardwood: please be mindful if you are wearing heels. Comfortable hotel-style slippers can be provided on request

3) Children and infants:
Unfortunately I am unable to provide baby cots or high chairs.
Please clearly state if you will be travelling with kids 16 or younger and include any children over 2 years and those needing their own bed in the total number of guests. Children under 16 will be considered if adequate guarantee is provided that they will be impeccably behaved. The decor of my home and neighbours consideration make my home unsuitable for loud/hyper kids, please respect this.

4) Damages:
Accidents happen. That's okay as long as it's communicated to me as early as possible so I can fix it swiftly with no disruption to my next guests. Just as if you were at a friend's house, If a glass or plate breaks it's no big deal, but should more serious damage occur you may be asked to meet costs. I'm happy to work with your insurance in these cases.

5) Check-in:
Check in is available from 3pm till 10pm and checkout is by 11am. If you arrive early or need a little extra time I may be able to let you drop off your bags or store them after check out, please let me know this before confirming the booking.
Late check-ins are not a problem, so no worries if you arrive very late at night. These must be arranged at least 3 days before, or you may not be able to be checked in upon your arrival if you just turn up late.
Check ins after 10pm or before 11am (planned or actual) will attract a £50 charge to cover staff travel.

6) Communication:
I value good communication!
If an issue arises, let me know straight away - I can deal with most problems swiftly before they become apparent - please do not suffer in silence! Simply send me an Airbnb message and I will respond in EVERY instance.

6) Third party bookings:
Third party bookings (including for friends and family) must be agreed in advance and the lead guest will need to provide ID at check in.
It is the responsibility of the guest making the reservation to make sure the listing is a good fit for their party's needs and to ensure the other members of their party have read and understood these rule and acquainted themselves with the listing description. It's a great idea to forward the link to this listing to all the other guests so they know what the home looks like and what they can expect.

7) Visitors:
The flat is let to you on the understanding that it will be for guests' use only and it will not be used for events or to entertain parties, functions etc unless agreed prior to booking. If you plan on having drop-in visitors (ie: clients/family) and would like to entertain them in the apartment that's fine as long as it is clearly communicated and agreed to before you book starts and this takes place between 9am and 10pm.

😎 Functions and photoshoots/video fall under a different pricing structure. A booking is considered an Function when booked occupancy is exceeded without prior agreement and/or visitors remain on premises outside visiting hours or my space is used for video/photoshoots. Functions will be considered on an ad-hoc basis and attract a feee of £500 in addition to the booking cost.
Breaking the house rules, especially #8, will be considered in breach of our terms of service and result in your reservation being curtailed with no entitlement to a refund and your security deposit being forfeited/used to meet the Function Fee. This is to avoid a few spoiling it for the most.
I've never had to enforce this and I am keen to keep it that way, so if in doubt feel free to ask any questions.

Now that we got the boring bit out of the way, I want you to fully enjoy your stay and leave with huge smiles on your faces. I enjoy a high rate of repeat guests and I would love you to be among them!

Please use the words "Big Lounge" in your first message to me, so I can appreciate that you have read these notes.

And yes, I know there are two #6 🙂

[Yan49]

UPDATE

Well, wouldn't you know it - they refunded them.

That's the short of it. I'll post up the whole conversation thread with the various case managers who've been passing this hot potato to each other, but first my House Rules, which I ask each and every guest to confirm they have read and understood - so we're all on the same page:

• Check-in time is 3PM.
• Check-out time is 11AM

Thank you for choosing my home - I love getting to know my guests! So please don't be shy and drop me a line with an introduction. If you're stuck for ideas, this a good start:
- Your names
- Your background (occupation, interests etc)
- Your nationality
- Your age(s)
- The purpose of your visit
- Why you chose my home

I'm a very relaxed host, however there are a few house rules in place to ensure we're both safe and cherish a great memory of your stay. They're mainly common sense but here they are to clear any doubt. Please take a moment to read them:

1) ABSOLUTELY NO PARTIES OR EVENTS!

2) The house is strictly non-smoking and unsuitable for pets:
Smoking inside with the windows open, in the kitchen or in the bathroom with the vent on is still smoking in the house and will incur a £350 deep cleaning fee.
The floors are hardwood: please be mindful if you are wearing heels. Comfortable hotel-style slippers can be provided on request

3) Children and infants:
Unfortunately I am unable to provide baby cots or high chairs.
Please clearly state if you will be travelling with kids 16 or younger and include any children over 2 years and those needing their own bed in the total number of guests. Children under 16 will be considered if adequate guarantee is provided that they will be impeccably behaved. The decor of my home and neighbours consideration make my home unsuitable for loud/hyper kids, please respect this.

4) Damages:
Accidents happen. That's okay as long as it's communicated to me as early as possible so I can fix it swiftly with no disruption to my next guests. Just as if you were at a friend's house, If a glass or plate breaks it's no big deal, but should more serious damage occur you may be asked to meet costs. I'm happy to work with your insurance in these cases.

5) Check-in:
Check in is available from 3pm and checkout is by 11am. If you arrive early or need a little extra time I may be able to let you drop off your bags or store them after check out, please let me know this before confirming the booking.
Late check-ins are not a problem, so no worries if you arrive very late at night. These must be arranged at least 3 days before, or you may not be able to be checked in upon your arrival if you just turn up late.
Check ins after 10pm or before 11am (planned or actual) will attract a £50 charge to cover staff travel.

6) Communication:
I value good communication!
If an issue arises, let me know straight away - I can deal with most problems swiftly before they become apparent - please do not suffer in silence! Simply send me an Airbnb message and I will respond in EVERY instance.

6) Third party bookings:
Third party bookings (including for friends and family) must be agreed in advance and the lead guest will need to provide ID at check in.
It is the responsibility of the guest making the reservation to make sure the listing is a good fit for their party's needs and to ensure the other members of their party have read and understood these rule and acquainted themselves with the listing description. It's a great idea to forward the link to this listing to all the other guests so they know what the home looks like and what they can expect.

7) Visitors:
The flat is let to you on the understanding that it will be for guests' use only and it will not be used for events or to entertain parties, functions etc unless agreed prior to booking. If you plan on having drop-in visitors (ie: clients/family) and would like to entertain them in the apartment that's fine as long as it is clearly communicated and agreed to before you book starts and this takes place between 9am and 10pm.

😎 Functions and photoshoots/video fall under a different pricing structure. A booking is considered an Function when booked occupancy is exceeded without prior agreement and/or visitors remain on premises outside visiting hours or my space is used for video/photoshoots. Functions will be considered on an ad-hoc basis and attract a feee of £500 in addition to the booking cost.
Breaking the house rules, especially #8, will be considered in breach of our terms of service and result in your reservation being curtailed with no entitlement to a refund and your security deposit being forfeited/used to meet the Function Fee. This is to avoid a few spoiling it for the most.
I've never had to enforce this and I am keen to keep it that way, so if in doubt feel free to ask any questions.

Now that we got the boring bit out of the way, I want you to fully enjoy your stay and leave with huge smiles on your faces. I enjoy a high rate of repeat guests and I would love you to be among them!

Please use the words "Big Lounge" in your first message to me, so I can appreciate that you have read these notes.

[Kenneth12]

ABB gave the guests a refund,  or made you give them a refund?  Big difference.
Sorry to hear you had to go through this.

[Yan49]

They did, after I declined to give in to the pressure of their "you don't have to refund them, but we would really, REEEEALLY appreciate if you would". They also tried going over my head and asking my co-host, who doesn' have any decision making power, but knew better and also declined.

I'l post a screenshot of the whole conversation thread with the Airbnb support after editing names out. 

[Zolly0]

Reading what you guys have been through is really eye opening for me. And I'm so sorry for what you have been through. It must be really mentally draining. In 4 years I haven't had the need to contact CS. Now I know that there would be no point in it.

But I am also on HAA site. One lady booked well in advance, then had to cancel about 1 month before the date. I got to keep the deposit. I felt pretty bad about it as I would have waived it. Very different rules. Also they ask you after each departure if you need to withold any of the deposit for breakages etc.  The difference is that you don't get to see the guest profile before they arrive - which is important for me as I google everyone before accepting. Perhaps I need to rethink.

What are you going to do now Yan? Continue to stay with ABB or ...?

[Yan49]

Hi Zolly, thanks for your supporting words. It's good to know you never had to go through this and I hope you never will. The answer is: NO. The forums are full of whingers who keep going on about how they're thinking of leaving Airbnb, but Airbnb know it's all bark and no bite cause people don't like change. So I have already pulled 2 listings I have on separate accounts, one being a £300/night fully-booked Airbnb Plus home. HA/VRBO/Expedia/FlipKey are right now the better option and bookings have already started to roll in.  They seem to attract better, longer bookings from families, as opposed to the younger and more troublesome crowd Airbnb seems to bring, so I see myself eventually migrating all my listings over and maybe use Airbnb as a filler for short and lastminute vacancies. Booking.com *can* be good, has a far larger market share and exposure than ABB and I get payments for bookings immediately upon reservation straight into my bank account, not after check in. They don't do stupid things like get involved, overrule my policies or cancel my payouts. If they at some point will wrap their head around private flats, they'll be #1. They're still stuck in hotel mentality currently, but Booking requires 90% less admin time than Airbnb because only confirmed guests can message you. Compare that to all the dead-end enquiries from people who didn't read a word of your listing you reply to on Airbnb. They also let you take your own CC deposits so you can actually charge for damages instead of being given the run-around with that joke that is the Airbnb non-existent damage deposit or even more elusive "host guarantee".

I used to favour Airbnb for the protection I was under the illusion it offered, but now that I realise it's all a marketing gambit which they 99% wiggle out of, I'm out. This one trick alone cost me £1200 for the refund they gave them PLUS another £800 reservation I had to cancel because I had to postpone the trip the first reservation was paying for, so I'll be using the flat myself. So £2k down with one reservation. Even if I got less occupancy or a lower price on other platforms, it still averages out better once you account for all the Airbnb fails.