Renters upset about cameras

[Amy180]

So I had some renters upset about my exterior cameras (doorbell, courtyard and backyard).  I offered (against my inner gut) to let them cover the pool camera or turn off the internet which would render the cameras inoperable.  They instead decided (after checking in and spending 3+ hours at the house) to cancel through AirBnB claiming that they didn’t like the cameras.  Well after reviewing the footage there were 9 people hauling luggage out of the house on a reservation MAX of 8!!!! Seriously now why didn’t you want the cameras?? Oh because you were going against house rules and didn’t want to get caught.  Seriously if AirBnB sides with the guest on this one I will take my business elsewhere.  I had a gut feeling and I was right.  Hence the reason we have exterior cameras!!!! Anyway I reported to AirBnB and will supply supporting video showing they were lying.  Wish me luck.  Oh and add to that they suspended my listing for this weekend. Just beware seems that guests have all the rights and hosts have none. 

[Mike-And-Jane0 · Accepted solution]

@Amy180 There has been a recent spate of listing suspensions due to cameras. It is not clear if this is intended by Airbnb or a knee jerk reaction from poorly trained customer service staff.

[Amy180]

Well there are cameras for a reason as shown in this example.  Had the city busted ME for “allowing” more people than my license permits I would have been fined and lost my STVR permit.  All because some entitled little brats wanted to break the rules and not get caught.  They literally said, “had we known there were exterior cameras we wouldn’t have booked.”  Again just showing that they wanted to get away with something.  And what sucks is that I cannot even warn other hosts about these folks lying ways. 

[Karim403]

I do agree with the others regarding disclosing the cameras. It does however seem a little crazy to crave privacy over potential safety and accountability in a business. This isn't the guest's personal home - it is a business that provides hospitality service. In hotels you have cameras over pools, in common areas, all around the property. You can't tell them you feel deprived of your privacy. You want privacy go in your room. Why would you come to another business (smaller business) demanding this?

When / if something happens that's the tool that will give you the facts needed to support a case. Frankly if you come to a stay and you're peeving about external cameras - you have a psychological problem or you are up to something and don't want to be seen. This is something i believe hosts should have one view on and that's to cover your ass. Have cameras everywhere just like a hotel. This way its normal. We cant have hosts thinking they are guests. Act like a host and protect your investment and and property and by extension the guest. 

You only want one time some guest show up claiming little bobby or britney slipped on a deck and is suing you or AirBnB - now you wish you had footage from a camera. Protect yourself, your business and as i said before - your guest.

[Mike-And-Jane0]

@Amy180 Your post suggests the cameras were not disclosed. It is essential that they be disclosed as it is a) required by Airbnb rules and b) will, as your brats said, put them off booking with you.

Presumably when your suspension is lifted you will be able to review this group?

[Amy180]

In state of CA the law states that it does not need to be disclosed but cannot be hidden and I believe that state laws would supersede AirBnB’s suggested rule.  Regardless when they were given the opportunity to cover or turn them off but were advised that the neighbors will be letting me know if there is anything I need to know (such as too many people) they decided to vacate.  I doubt AirBnB will allow either of us to review.  I will disclose the cameras and for future advice to all hosts, if the guest has an issue with your exterior cameras there is a reason.  

[Helen744]

@Helen744 @Amy180 I do agree that there is often another reason from guests other than the one stated, but  I would not rely on cameras to check guest numbers either.If you and your guest are on the Airbnb site then it is Airbnbs rules you live and die by.  Good luck with this but cameras on the pool? that to me if not disclosed is a reason to leave. Lots of people who normally use cameras in their own homes seem to think they are a spy tool and seem to have no understanding that their potential use to invade privacy will wreck their profile H

[Gillian166]

@Helen744  Cameras over swimming pools are VERY common, if not the norm, in modern households with little kids.  

[Helen744]

@Gillian166 I can understand that H

[Kate867]

@Amy180   Airbnb have terms and conditions that you agree to are expected to abide by when you sign up with your listing.  Some of these are ‘additional’ to local laws.  Having cameras, but not mentioning them in your listing is a Host Violation as far as Airbnb are concerned and a guest who complains will be taken seriously by them

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/help/article/2914/informing-guests-about-security-devices

Personally, I would not book an Airbnb that had excessive numbers of security cameras.  I would be fine with  one or two at doors and car parking area to monitor number of guests etc.  but would be really unhappy at exterior areas such as patio, BBQ area, pool area etc being monitored.  This is not because I intend to break any house rules, but because I like my privacy.  If I did book somewhere, arrived and found undisclosed cameras then I would leave and ask for a full refund.  Equally, I totally understand why some hosts feel the need to have these areas covered especially if they have had a past bad experience with guests.  Guests have a right to know prior to booking as to what level of privacy they are being afforded.

[Amy180]

Again there are cameras to catch exactly what they did which was being too many guests.  I gave them the option to cover or turn off the cameras but since they knew someone else (my neighbor) was going to be reporting on how many people they knew they were going to be in violation of their reservation and decided to leave and complain.  
  Here’s the deal.  What IF they stayed and the city came by to check how many people were there (which they have been known to do),  I would be fined thousands of dollars and lose my STVR license.  Then what?  There is no recourse valuable enough to put on those guests who violated THEIR contract when they booked the rental that has a limit of 8 guests!  You think I could get AirBnB to charge them for years worth of lost revenue because my license was taken away??  I doubt it.  So basically as a host you just have to trust that people are going to be honest? Sadly I have been burned too many times.  Even some other guests last month brought more people than their listing but it wasn’t over the limit so at least they weren’t in violation of my license.

I gave these kids an option to remedy their concerns.  They were afraid they were going to get caught violating the Terms and Conditions they were supposed to follow so they left.  We will see what AirBnB says but I am likely to leave this platform and move over to Evolve who I have used before and they are more host friendly.  

[Kate867]

I totally get what you are saying, I sympathise and yes they did violate your house rules.  However, you are also violating Airbnb’s terms and conditions which you agreed to by NOT disclosing the cameras.  The problem here, is that they will most likely get a refund and will also be able to book elsewhere.  

However, your violation will most likely be taken more seriously by Airbnb due to a ‘trust and safety’ issue and you could find yourself permanently suspended from their platform.  Had you disclosed your cameras on your listing then they most likely would not have booked, and if they had booked and got caught then you would have had a perfectly legitimate right to ask them to leave without any problems at all.  You can have as many cameras outside as you like in order to protect yourself and your property but they absolutely must be disclosed in your listing and not be capable of seeing into private areas such as bathrooms and sleeping areas as per Airbnb’s terms and conditions 

I hope it all works out for you

[Amy180]

You say IF they had gotten caught I could ask them to leave……… problem is they would have been caught by the city and as I mentioned their violation would have cost me my STVR license in addition to thousands of dollars in fines!!! There is NO recourse for that! I wouldn’t be able to get my license back and lose years worth of revenue. These cameras were only in front courtyard facing the gate (not the house) and in the backyard (not facing the house).  I also think that they saw the house and realized that it wasn’t comfortable for the excessive number of people they were bringing and decided to find a way to get their money back and go elsewhere.  I absolutely HATE these entitled millennials that think rules don’t apply to them and have no consequences for their actions.  Hosts are just at the mercy of the guests and AirBnBs ridiculous policies (many that aren’t legally enforceable).  Thank god their are other platforms as this will be my last month of AirBnB as a host or guest.

[Kate867]

this is what I actually said above

‘Had you disclosed your cameras on your listing then they most likely would not have booked, and if they had booked and got caught then you would have had a perfectly legitimate right to ask them to leave without any problems at all.’

Of course you would have caught them… on your LISTED cameras and your licence would be safe.

However, having a listing with LISTED cameras may (depending on locations) reduce the number of bookings you get due to some guests having a requirement for privacy .. as demonstrated by those particular guests.  Not all guests wanting privacy intend to break your rules.

[Helen744]

@Helen744 @Amy 180 it seems you have taken a sledge hammer to a gnat really. You could have just asked them to pay an extra fee or asked one to leave. How hands on are you ? With a pool and eight guests then thats a party in any language. Did you have the names and ids of all guests and vax certs ? If you had done all you could to protect both yourself and your guests them maybe it is time to increase the minimum stay to three days or greater than it already is  Do a bit more profiling . Turn off IB for a while and maybe institute a minimum age to say over thirties at least you can be sure they have ids,well pretty sure. It happens to all of us and we learn pretty quick to get on top of the game . You can do this H