People really don't know they should not bring extra guests...

[Laura2592]

I did a little experiment. I posted a list of FAQs/dos and don'ts on social media about how to be a great guest on ABB. The responses were enlightening. 

Many respondents, including some who follow my actual ABB account and have stayed as guests, expressed surprise at my bullet "don't bring extra people to your reservation." There is a large contingent of the public who really seems to believe that its totally okay to invite others to a place they book. Of course I gave reasons (insurance/liability, appropriate set up with supplies, space to sleep, extra cleanup  etc.) These aren't bad people, just people who have been led to believe that they can do whatever they want in the space they have rented with the inclusion of having additional people visit or stay beyond what the listing says.  Some of this might be disingenuous, but I really feel like much of it is a big misunderstanding based on the way the platform positions itself.

The "don't have a party" bullet also met with "well, we had a small get together for a birthday at an ABB and it was okay" and questions about what a party is. People seem to believe that if its 10 -20 people coming over to celebrate its not really a party. Dinner parties were also mentioned ('We stayed at an ABB with capacity for 12 and we had 6 people staying, so we invited 6 of our friends in the area for dinner. I am sure that was fine with the host." "Did you ask them?" "No, I was surprised afterwards... that they left us a really lukewarm review." "That's probably why.")

I don't know what can be done on a micro level, other than hosts making things as clear as possible with each booking. But until ABB starts some kind of awareness campaign I think we will all continue to struggle with capacity issues. No one wants to be constantly policing their listing for extra people or watching cameras. Why do you think that there isn't more of an effort made by ABB to address this disconnect?

[Brian2036]

@Laura2592 

Airbnb really doesn’t care what people do as long as they pay.

It should be made abundantly clear that ANYONE who is in the house for any reason after 10 PM will be considered to be a guest, must be registered, and is subject to a surcharge.

Maximum occupancy may be a matter of law in some jurisdictions, particularly so in view of the COVID-19 situation, and this should be posted prominently near the top of the listing. Airbnb should require this.

[Laura2592]

@Brian2036 I agree that this should be prominently posted on every listing.

If you think about this from a cost perspective, I would bet that ABB gets a LOT of calls about capacity issues. A. Lot. If they started collecting data on the topics for calls to customer service, I would not be at all surprised if "the guests came with people not on the reservation" would be the number one complaint, or at least in the top 3. They could probably save a lot of time, energy and money by simply marketing the idea that ABB is not a free-for-all and that capacity has some kind of meaning. Instead, they punt it back to the host to enforce to a public that is generally pretty clueless. If the host addresses it, they can expect a poor guest review for their trouble, and even more calls to CS as the host and possibly the guest complain about the experience. 

Unless ABB's business model includes "masochism" or "sadism" as a corporate value, you have to wonder why someone has not taken more steps to save the company from the resources poured into this issue. 

[Mark116]

@Laura2592   Airbnb doesn't care.  We know they don't care if only from the fact that it took the mass shooting/killing at the party in CA for them to do anything about huge, unauthorized raging violent parties advertised on SM.  That tells me that they have now and in future will always  have zero interest in helping hosts/educating guests about a handful of extra people.  Past is prologue.

I will say that a dinner party of 8-10 isn't really what I would consider a party.  Guests should always ask, but I would put that in a different category.

[Laura2592]

@Mark116 I agree. Guests need to ask. I would think a dinner party of 8-12  would be a party because my space only sleeps 4. That's a lot of people to squeeze into a 1400 square foot cottage. Someone else might define it totally differently and be okay. But many guests don't even seem to know that they SHOULD ask. Which is where it would be fantastic to have a well marketed international platform which could write some very basic sentences about what guests should know when booking. But I agree that they don't care to.

[Mark116]

@Laura2592  Or, even easier, given their near constant and near pointless work on the web site, they can simply make the max guest count more visible and they could link it to a box check where you, as host, can check -extra guests w/charge, -no extra guests allowed, -extra guests with permission or something along those lines.  A design solution that would draw attention to the capacity and rules around it.  But, god forbid, any of the web tinkering improve things for the hosts or bring more clarity around rules.

[Laura2592]

@Mark116 such an elegant, simple solution! If only....

Host Advisory Board, I think we have some advice LOL.

[Brian2036]

@Mark116 

Maybe you don’t think a 10-person dinner party is an abuse of your property, but doesn’t that depend on who the dinner guests are?

If they don’t ask permission you have no control over that.

Maybe it’s just a small group of Satanists who plan to sacrifice a lamb on your dining room table.

Or a friendly gang of motorcycle enthusiasts. Hopefully the other outlaw bikers don’t get offended because they weren’t invited.

Or just Bob, Carol, Ted, Alice and their herd of psychotic children. Ted was just released from the laughing academy and everyone really missed him and his invisible friends.

Or… NO PARTIES THAT INVOLVE UNREGISTERED GUESTS.

[Mark116]

@Brian2036  We're lucky because we live in the same house as the airbnb, and we mention that in our first message to all guests, so, things could not get very out of hand w/out our knowledge and we rarely have the Airbnb rented if we are going to be away for more than a day or so.  In the past we have allowed a dinner party of 8, which the guests asked us in advance.  I probably wouldn't approve that now due to covid, it would depend on the timing I guess. 

Our rules say that no one is allowed on the property except registered guests unless we give permission in advance.  In 5 years, we've only had 3 sets who brought extra guests.  The first snuck in one guy and that was when we added the rule.  The second  had 1-2 people over, but they didn't sleep here, they were loud and clueless.  The last group was so flagrantly abusive of the rules that we considered calling the police on them, booked for 2 and had 3 and then SIX stay!  They were hellish all the way around.

[Brian2036]

I can see that living in the same house would be a strong deterrent, but even that wasn’t enough in the case you mentioned. Incredible.

 It’s difficult to believe that anyone is so ignorant that they think bringing six uninvited people into someone else’s home would ever be acceptable, but maybe it’s commonplace where they live.

 I could see something like that in Panama where we live part of the year. You invite a couple for dinner and they bring six others with them without prior notice.

Guess who gets to pay.

In Panama it’s not uncommon to have three generations living in one very small house, and you can’t go out to dinner without bringing all your relatives.

That would be rude.

[Laura2592]

@Brian2036my husband is half Mexican. We struggle with boundary issues about visitors, people coming with who you don't have space for, people going into places in your home that are off limits, etc on that side of the family. Works the other way too. Staying in a hotel while visiting them has started WW3 but its non-negotiable for me. Definitely very different cultural norms in those cases.

[Brian2036]

@Laura2592 
Something I should have brought up on the thread where we were discussing different guest expectations is the concept of “personal space.”

It’s definitely different in many places.

I think Americans generally expect more. Private bathrooms, private bedrooms, and most certainly private beds!

 I have been to places in this world where such demands might be considered to be unreasonably selfish.

Panamanian hotels that cater to Panamanians often have “family rooms” which contain as many beds as they can cram in there. I have seen six double beds in one room.

In some Asian countries it is not considered unacceptable to be asked to share a bed with a complete stranger.

 I would absolutely refuse to do anything like that under any circumstances but actually this used to be considered normal in Europe a couple of hundred years ago, and there are still hostels where guests get really cozy with dozens of other people although I never heard of shared beds.

I’d rather sleep on a park bench. 

[Ryan2352]

The did within the last couple of days modify their listing pages to display the maximum occupancy, bedroom and bathroom counts at the top of the page.  Step in the right direction.  Plus they went to square host photos instead of circular.  No more chopped off head for me!

[Michelle53]

@Brian2036  @Laura2592  My space sleeps 4, and has a maximum occupancy of 4. Occupancy is defined in the City of Chicago STR Ordinance as being one person per 125 square feet, per the fire code. 

I have four beds - two doubles, two singles, so occasionally it has happened that someone will ask if they can have 5 or 6 people since they can "double up in the beds".   I've had to decline those requests.

The small table only has four chairs, so clearly the space isn't set up for a larger number, and I've never been asked to accommodate an air mattress. 

Also, I'll occasionally get someone who books for one or two people, but then I notice on my ring doorbell an extra person who comes and goes, and an extra chair at the table. Sometimes I'll just let that go, since often people have a friend in the area pick them up to go out, unless it's obvious that more than the number of booked guests spent the night. 

The trend this year, though, has been that most of my guests have been experienced with Airbnb and have a lot of great reviews.  They generally ask in advance what my policy is for visitors.  And I've been proactive about mentioning that in my guest screening. 

[Cave0]

This is from a recent prolonged discussion I've had with Airbnb:

"The issue is complicated because there's a difference between unauthorized guests, and unauthorized visitors.

Unauthorized guests are people that stay overnight. That is not allowed according to our terms.

Unauthorized visitors, are people that enters the listing for a certain period but don't stay overnight. They are not considered guests.

This is where things get confusing, because we don't have an specific rule for visitors on our terms, we only have for guests."

Despite 2.3 of the Terms of Service stating:

"2.3 Accommodation Reservations. An Accommodation reservation is a limited license to enter, occupy and use the Accommodation. The Host retains the right to re-enter the Accommodation during your stay, to the extent: (i) it is reasonably necessary, (ii) permitted by your contract with the Host, and (iii) consistent with applicable law. If you stay past checkout, the Host has the right to make you leave in a manner consistent with applicable law, including by imposing reasonable overstay penalties. You may not exceed the maximum number of allowed Guests."

And Airbnb previously stating:

"Allowed guests" means the number of guest registered in the reservation.

In case a guest books a reservation for 3 people. Only 3 people are allowed in the listing, unless the guest contacts you and ask if you would authorize an additional guest. If you authorize, in this case, it's OK to bring an additional guest."

In essence, Airbnb seems to make up the rules as it goes along.  The Terms of Service are quite clear and refer to "Hosts", "Guests" and "Members", the term "Visitors" is nowhere to be seen and even though Airbnb confirmed in writing that "Allowed guests" means those on the reservation, this was later retracted.

So now it seems that if they don't stay over, they are visitors and you can charge if it's in your House Rules, but the Terms of Service make no provision for this charge, only the "Extra Guest Charge" is covered.  I have a terrible feeling that when it comes down to it, any attempt to charge for "Visitors" will be refused by Airbnb on the basis that it's a violation of the Terms of Service.