Contract Law

[Keith589]

Hello Community

Is there anyone else out there refusing to agree to the wearing of masks and social-distancing

My account is unable to function unless I agree.

My view is that Contracts are only binding when all parties have agreed after full-disclosure

I have no intention of agreeing to this policy.

Which means by disabling my business from functioning through a Dictatorial policy

based ONLY on Airbnb's perspectives this is a breach of Contract

Does anyone have any advice, aside from agreeing and then ignoring the  said agreement,

not sure I wish to descend to their level.

Keith Dennis

[Anonymous]

@Keith589   If you signed to the agreement, you are contractually obliged to your guests to fulfill its terms.  Your listing does not appear to disclose that you refuse to wear masks and practice social distancing, so any bookings you receive through Airbnb will have been made under a dishonest pretext.  Your contract with the guests will have been breached, and they will be entitled to a full refund.

I also disagree with some aspects of the policy, which is why I refused to sign on with it. But I accept that this means I can't have an active listing on Airbnb right now. You can't have it both ways - if you're unwilling to accept the terms of a contract, don't sign it. 

[Keith589]

Hello Andrew

I joined Airbnb many years ago before (theoretically) anyone knew of Covid,

since then Airbnb have attempted to make their business covid-compliant

I do not buy into the covid nonsense and have not agreed to the amended 

contractual terms.

Which is why I mentioned contract law, AirBnB are changing how they want to

run their platform, and are forcing all existing Hosts to agree with their conditions

There has been no discussion nor debate, just a DIKTAT.

Because I am unwilling to comply with the new unilaterally declared arrangements

their platform is disabling my listing from functioning as before

ERGO AIRBnb has broken it;s contract, I am not obliged to agree with what they

have decided and now find my trade has been restrained through their changes.

I just mentioned that I could agree and then carry on as usual, but I have 

decided that would be giving AIrBnB credibility for what I  see as a stupid policy

and one where it is pretty much impossible to get anyone of stature to

engage in debate.

This is bull-dozer tactics, or as George Bush Jnr said

"you're with us or you're agin us"

there is no debate no middle ground, so much for the rule of law

I am making a point of putting this out there in the community to Highlight the character

of AirBnb and their business ETHICS, they have none.

Quite surprised to find my comments still on the platform.

[Mike-And-Jane0]

@Keith589 Apart from being factually wrong your posts will be welcomed by the administrators as they do not break any Community Centre rules.

If you actually take the time to read the agreement you have made with Airbnb they have the right to update their terms anytime they want just as you have the right to stop using their platform anytime you want.

[Anonymous]

@Keith589   Although I probably don't share your views on Covid, I think you illustrate an important point about what's going on with the mandatory "opt-in."  Airbnb's past policy changes have mostly concerned the interface between user and platform.  It's a huge pivot away from the notion of hosts being independent operators, when the listing service assumes the right to standardize any internal aspect of the host's business such as how they clean their households. And while this comes in the costume of Covid prevention, it's important to note that there's no indication this policy will expire post-pandemic.

I wouldn't say this is a violation of hosts' rights, as you are always free to remove your listing and take your business elsewhere. All listing services have their own requirements for who gets to use their product, just as all hosts have their own rules and requirements for staying in their homes. What does trouble me ethically is that Airbnb is presenting to guests all this false information about what protocols hosts are following as if it was part of their listing settings, without telling guests that this was just based on making them click a button under duress. 

If you continue to have active listings with available calendar dates, you're kind of undermining your own point here. As they stand, your listings are falsely advertising standards that you don't intend to uphold, and this abuses the trust in the contract that really matters: that between you and your guests. If you want to talk about ethics, you'll have to put your money (and your listing) where your mouth is and move to a platform whose rules you're willing to agree to.

[Sarah977]

@Keith589  "Quite surprised to find my comments still on the platform."

Why? You have posted here for the first time, so would be unfamiliar with this forum. Assuming something about that with which you aren't familiar doesn't make much sense.

Criticism of Airbnb policy is not censored here, as is evidenced by many posts here.

And no, I have seen almost no objection to wearing masks or distancing, except by hosts in New Zealand and much of Australia, where they have succeeded in eliminating community transmission (through the wearing of masks and distancing, as well as lockdowns and strict quarantine requirements for incoming travellers) because most hosts believe in science.

[Keith589]

Hello Sarah

thanks for your reply

I am on other forums not to do with Hosting, and any comments anti-lockdown are

removed with no debate

Airbnb have invested 350 million dollars to adjust it's business for Covid

which is a something 99.7% of people will recover from, so why the need for such a large 

investment and why such a radical change to existing contracts that have not been 

Explicitly agreed to, other than  by enforced  compliance to the technological hurdles presented

when trying to run your business.

I think your use of the word lawful needs to be addressed, in the UK we have guidance

which is not LAW, all fines when challenged have been thrown out, as they are not lawful

Airbnb has chosen to do Our governments bidding, other platforms have not

My beef is that Airbnb has changed the contract unilaterally, with no debate

the fact that I disagree with what they are doing means they have breached the original contract

Governments have NO SWAY over pre-existing contracts

That is Illegal and unlawful

Airbnb has chosen to do this, our government and Airbnb are both behaving unlawfully

I raised this thread to get the rest of you aware that this is quite quite extraordinary behaviour.

The lawyers at Airbnb will know they have breached contracts, but know full well we will struggle to bring them to account, so they carry on regardless

[Mike-And-Jane0]

@Keith589 I guess you are trying your best to get your post removed but assuming it doesn't then I will just have to correct it,

You say 99.7% of people recover from Covid. I think the UK death rate suggests this is not true but 0.3% of the population is an awfully large number anyway.

In the UK we have guidance and we also have laws. People have been fined for breaking the law and these fines have been upheld. Some fines (a minority) for breaches of guidance have not.

You say 'the fact I disagree with what they are doing means they have breached the original contract'. Wrong again I am afraid - Their contract allows them to change it. Just you disagreeing does not make something unlawful 

You say 'Governments have no sway over pre-existing contracts'. Of course they do otherwise bodies like the Competition and Markets Authority would not be able to do the work they do in exposing illegal contracts.

Can I suggest you try to bring a few facts next time.

[Sarah977]

@Mike-And-Jane0  Not only is the death rate 3% ( Keith appears to be math-challenged- that translates to 97% recovering, not 99.7%), a concerning number of those who have had the virus are suffering long term effects. I read the other day that up to 85% report ongoing effects, some severe enough that they can't be productive for more than a few hours a day and have had to quit their jobs. Ongoing, debilitating fatigue seems to be quite common.

[Keith589]

Hello Mike and Janet

I'm afraid your comments are so way out of line

you have exposed yourselves  as Airbnb shills.

Doing your best to keep the even keel.

I gave you figures you just mentioned death rate, and you are asking me for facts

I gave you facts and you just returned with Rhetoric.

You certainly know nothing about Contract law, all changes have to be agreed by all parties

People beware of Mike and Janet

[Sarah977]

@Keith589  The people I "beware of" are those who refuse to wear a mask or practice social distancing, who are a threat to my health and everyone else's.

The Covid death rate is 3% worldwide, much higher in some areas. 99.7%+3%=102.7%. So no, you aren't presenting facts, you are presenting faulty math.

[Clare167]

Dear @Keith589 , the advice that you have been given here is sound.

We each have to choose between accepting Airbnb's terms or walking away. Personally, I am walking away (though I notice that I have "unlisted", rather than deleting, guess I can't bear to throw away the work involved in putting together the listing!). This is because I don't agree to the cleaning policy; I am perfectly happy with social distancing and masking, to the limited extent they would be applicable. 

Perhaps you might take a rest from hosting until it is lawful in England to meet indoors without social distancing and masks, and, who knows, this might also become acceptable to Airbnb.

[Keith589]

Hello Claire

I accepted the terms and conditions when I joined Airbnb

That would form a contract between us, 

Under contract law No one party can change the contract unilaterally, which is what Airbnb is doing

and it has structured it's technology  such that unless I tick a box to agree to something I expressly do not want to do, it has effectively breached the original contract

If you check out the notion of contract law, all parties are to give full disclosure and can then agree

I did this at inception, I was never asked my views on these changes and the systems are set up

to force you to agree and comply to their new policies.

This has nothing to  do with and expressly violates contract law

All of you who have responded are missing the most important point and that is corporate bullying

no forum for debate on policy or direction, their business before Government handouts was from the 

energy we put into OUR businesses. We are being treated with utter contempt.

[Sarah977]

@Keith589  Airbnb changes many of its policies all the time. And its right to do so and your agreement to abide by whatever policy they have at any given time is laid out in the Terms of Service you agreed to when you listed with the company.

Those are the facts. Hosts have objection to many Airbnb policies, as well as the way they go about things, but your choice is to stay or leave. And to send them your feedback.

[Keith589]

You may have a point but the basis of contact law is agreement, appropriateness and

proportionality

These changes are not proportionate, and the purpose of contract law is to make sure that

no one party is allowed to abuse the other without their agreement.

I disagree wholeheartedly with their policy, you obviously have sympathy with them

as you like wearing masks.

I have sent you a video which explains how debilitating wearing masks is to your immune function, as you are so keen to wear a mask, could you please send me details of how this practice prevents transmission of anything let alone a virus.

If you are doing this because you have been told to do it but do not know why or whether it is effective, is something I find quite distressing.