Clarification on refund denial.

[Andrew2311]

Hi, I would just like some more opinions on my situation. Will paste the email I sent to airbnb below.

We have been dealing with this issue for months and the case was reopened recently and it seems like they are going to deny it again, but I have not been given any reason why these issues are being discounted.

Please give opinions.

To whom it may concern,

I have used Airbnb on multiple occasions with only positive experiences until recently my girlfriend and I booked a stay in a small camper hosted by HOST. We experienced multiple issues with the stay and contacted airbnb regarding this immediately and chose to book a hotel room rather than stay there.

We provided photos of the issues outlined below and were met with a rude customer service agent who took several days to start the process for a refund that we did not receive. This is not a comprehensive list of all of the problems we encountered here, only the ones that I believe were the most problematic.

• The AC unit does not keep the camper cool during the day, this was not safe or sanitary for us or our pets as it remained so hot that we could not comfortably stay in the unit during daylight hours.

• The pool area is included on the listing as an amenity and is one of the main reasons we booked this place, the photo in the listing shows dogs that were in a pen but upon our arrival and the duration of our time there the dogs were outside in the pool area, allowed to jump on guests and to swim in the pool while guests were present. There were dog feces on the ground throughout the pool area as well as clumped up dog hair collected on the porch. The smell of feces was strong enough to be noticed from the camper in which we were staying as it was only about 10ft away.

• The listing states no smoking or drug use, but the other guests and property owner sit out by the pool doing drugs and smoking cigarettes. While some drugs may now be legal for recreational use in AZ my US military status prevents me from being able to use them without legal repercussions, therefore I was forced to avoid the public area in order to prevent second hand contact with the substance.

• I had an allergic reaction to either their dogs, something in the camper itself, or something else on the property. We did not stay long enough for me to let this get much worse to figure out what was causing it and I do not believe that we should have been expected to do so.

• My girlfriend did not feel comfortable staying any longer at the place than we had to after messaging the host HOST regarding a refund as his passive aggressive and confrontational commentary made her feel uneasy.

I would like for this case to be reopened and preferably handled by a more capable case manager, as the way this was originally handled was very unprofessional. We paid for a month at this place and did not even stay for a full day. The severity of the issues I have listed affected us to the extent that we could not stay there without risk of medical issues for myself, our pets, and risk of compromising my military career.

While these issues could potentially be fixed for future guests it would have been out of the question and simply wrong to expect us to remain in these conditions while waiting for this host to fix them, we were not offered any assistance finding another lodging, temporary or otherwise by either the host or Airbnb. 

If this is not an issue that you are able to assist us with resolving please provide me with information on the best way to escalate this where it can be handled properly.

Sincerely,
    John A. **

End of email.

I understand that technically the place has a functioning AC, but when it can't get the temp below 95 I don't see how it is considered functional.

As for the dog feces, this is so bad that you can't even walk in the area without stepping in it. We have dogs and would never let our yard get this bad. I understand not picking it up immediately but this appears to never be cleaned. Also it is right on the other side of the fence that is directly beside the camper we were in (literally a few feet away, I could probably touch the camper and the fence at the same time).

The host was extremely disrespectful and his messages were clearly passive aggressive, after all of the rants he went through he did offer to try and fix the problems but by then I don't think anyone would have felt comfortable staying on his property.

This did not seem like a genuine offer, more as if he was just saying that so he could check a "I offered help" box for airbnb.

I understand that most of you are hosts but I don't believe a host should ever cuss to their guests when they are being respectful.

I just can't understand this whole situation.

We frequently use airbnb and if you ask any other host I've had we are great guests, we wouldn't leave the place the first day to stay in a crappy motel room if these problems weren't legitimate. We literally sent them photos and videos of these issues. How is this even legal?

Sorry for my rant, I am just so tired of dealing with this. This is a lot of money and we feel robbed, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

**[Personal information hidden - Community Center Guidelines]

[Linda108]

Hello @Andrew2311   Sounds like a terrible experience for you and your girlfriend.  If I understand you correctly, you were staying at a motel that was listed on the Air BNB platform.  You booked a long term stay (anything over 28 days is long term on Air BNB) but only stayed one night due to the poor condition of the property.  You attempted to have the host/motel manager fix the problems by communicating through the Air BNB communication system.  You are aware that the refund policies with a long term rental are such that there is no refund for the first month.  However, you believe that the property is in such disrepair that it is not liveable for you.  Were the reviews of the listing very positive?  I hope I have summarized your situation and can only suggest that you continue to present your case to Air BNB.  You are asking for an exception to the refund policies which are not in your favor given the length of the reservation. 

Another route to take, is to disclaim the credit card bill with evidence that you did not receive the contracted services, i.e., your receipt from the hotel you moved to.  Good luck and let us know what happens.

[Andrew2311]

Thanks for the response Linda!

The stay was in a camper, we immediately rented a motel room elsewhere due to the state of the hosts property. Based on what I have read on the Guest Refund policy that we should be entitled to a refund based on section c (ii) contains safety or health hazards that would be reasonably expected to adversely affect the Guest’s stay at the Accommodation in Airbnb’s judgment

I know that this specifically says "in Airbnb's judgement", but they couldn't possibly judge it otherwise if they looked at the photos we sent to them of the uncountable piles of dog feces and of most of my body breaking out into a rash.

I am still trying to present this to Airbnb but I'm not sure how it will go.

I'm afraid that if we disputed the transaction then Airbnb would send it to collections, which would be even worse, let me know if this is not the case.

[Sarah977]

@Andrew2311  Just because most of us are hosts here doesn't mean we aren't as disgusted to hear about people having the audacity to host and present a guest with these sorts of conditions as you are. It gives Airbnb and hosts a bad name.

What you  need to be aware of is that Airbnb outsources their customer service, doesn't train them properly, and they often know far less about Airbnb policy than users do. So they can be really frustrating and angering to deal with, and it's the luck of the draw whether you get a decent rep or not. And yes, some cases take months to resolve.

Have you asked for your case to be escalated? You might ask for it to be escalated to their Trust and Safety team.

And here is a tip for dealing with CS. State everything as simply as possible, in bullet point form, in chronological order. Forget what you learned in school about complete sentences and paragraphs.

The listing said there was AC in the camper.

The AC did not work.

We booked specifically because there was a pool, but the pool was dirty and dogs were in it.

The yard was full of dog feces, which was not only disgusting, but a health hazard. 

Due to the unhealthy and unsanitary conditions, the extreme heat in the camper because of the non-working AC, I developed a rash.

Attempts to speak to the host about the conditions and a refund were met with extreme rudeness.

Etc, etc.

You didn't answer Linda's question about the reviews this place had. Were there reviews? Did you communicate much with this host before you booked, or did you just book based on location, price, and the amenities that were listed?

[Andrew2311]

Oh sorry! The place had 2 reviews prior to us booking, they were positive.

We were in contact with the host before booking as well as he was telling us some details about the camper such as how to empty the black water tank and such. None of those details were problematic. He mentioned nothing regarding how the dogs shared the pool or the extreme heat.

I had the case escalated and it went to the "Escalations Team" I believe. They haven't been helpful as they sent us an email saying that they were reopening the case, then shortly after another email saying that we aren't getting a refund. All while contradicting themselves.

Edit : This was denied before we had any contact with the case manager or support. They attempted to call us a couple times while we were at work, and followed up via email that they had attempted to contact us. We apologized and responded with a number that we could be reached at and never got a call back. The next day we received this email.

"

Kindly accept my sincere apologies for the experience you had to witness during your stay with Airbnb. This is definitely not the type of service and experience we would ever want our user to go through. I completely understand how frustrating and upsetting it can get in such situations like these.

We want you to feel happy and comfortable with your accommodations. Our guest refund policy protects you and your money when it comes to listings that don't meet our minimum quality standards regarding safety, access, and cleanliness. It's also there for you when a listing's description on Airbnb is misrepresented or inaccurate. In the rare event that a host is unable to uphold the hosting standards, guests will be protected by our guest refund policy, which you can read more about in our Help Center article:

www.airbnb.com/help/article/544

"

then with

"

Upon checking the reservation details I can see here you have reported the issue with dogs in the listing and dog hairs in the backyard. Please know we have tried reaching out to your host, and they have denied offering any refund for this stay. Your host has informed that dogs are in shared space not in the listing area. Your host has informed they have offered assistance to correct the situation but you have canceled the reservation.

In this case we won't be able to process any additional refund. We recognize that this is not the outcome you were hoping for, but any refund outside your cancellation policy must be at your host’s discretion.

"

Without even mentioning the other issues, we sent them photo proof of the dog feces all over the yard, of my allergic reaction including (after requested) a date and time stamp of the photo.

It's as though they are pretending that these conversations never happened. Maybe I will send photos of the chats we had with their support team and copies of the proof again but I'm sure this will be ignored again.

Also, does the fact that the pool is a shared space mean it isn't the listing area? It was specifically included in the listing as an amenity with photos of the pool on the property listing. This doesn't make sense to me.

I spoke with 3 airbnb support reps yesterday who informed me that they personally contacted our case manager and we would be receiving a call within 30 minutes as the case manager was on shift and would be available to call us (3 because the 30 minutes had elapsed several times). We still haven't received a call or another email. None of the support reps would assist me in escalating this further as apparently the issue was already escalated above their level.

I will try and get this escalated to Trust and Safety, thank you for the suggestion!

[Mark116]

@Andrew2311   If you can prove the temp was at 95F in the camper you should have grounds for a refund, because that is unhealthy and unsafe and no one would be expected to stay somewhere that was this hot.

[Andrew2311]

I cannot prove this unfortunately without going back and measuring the exact temp. The AC had no temp control either so it is either on or off, freezing at night (unless you leave it off which will still be 100 degrees here in AZ) and hot in the day.

Do you think contacting the current guest (if there is one) and asking them to vouch for me regarding the heat would be a good idea?

[Mark116]

@Andrew2311  I doubt it, plus the current guest may not want to get involved in the dispute unless they're also unhappy with the place.

Did you take any pictures of the state of the yard or the dogs running loose?  

If a host refuses a refund, although Airbnb often sides with the guest, there usually needs to be some kind of evidence like photos or a set of messages where the host is acknowledging the problem.

[Andrew2311]

Yes, we took and sent pictures of the yard with the dogs running loose, the piles laying around everywhere, and the clumped up dog hair (a lot of it) on the porch. The host acknowledged the issue and stated -

quote

"Plus "insert dog owner name here" usually cleans up really well it might just be time to do his monthly round of cleanup he's not gonna be out there with a shovel every single time his dog poops"

and

"if you don't like the back patio area you can stay out."

exact words mind you.

A resident in his home owns the dogs (not a guest) and only cleans up after them once a month or so from what I understand. This is obviously not enough especially for 2 very large dogs in a yard this size.

Only a while after telling us that we can stay out if we don't like it did he offer assistance. This are is listed under the amenities section of the listing and the dogs are shown on one of the listing photos, not in the yard or in the pool but in a large pen.

Nothing to indicate that if we wanted to swim we would be doing it with 2 large dogs literally all over us the whole time.

[Andrew2311]

I believe that the dog owner is the homeowner and the host rents the space where the camper is from the homeowner.

[Sarah977]

@Andrew2311  Regarding what are in listings under "common spaces"- when you book a place where there is private guest space (in this case the camper) and common areas shared with the host or other guests, you should expect your private space to be clean and comfortable, but are subject to the living habits of the host in common spaces. If the host lives in clutter and shares the living room or the kitchen with guests, then the guest just has to put up with that. If the host has dogs and the outdoor furniture is covered in dog hair, that's just how it is. 

Of course good, responsible hosts will make an effort to keep common areas clean, but if they are slobs who aren't bothered by it, or don't really even see it, that's just unfortunate. If it bothered past guests, that would likely be mentioned in the reviews. So perhaps the positive reviews were from guests who had dogs they don't clean up after either, and find a yard full of land mines to be normal.

But if you can't walk outside the camper without stepping in dog poo, it smells, and is everywhere, that's a health hazard and over the top disgusting and unacceptable.

If the host has use of the pool offered in the listing, then that is a common space. If they don't offer the pool in their amenities list, yet have a photo of it, that is inaccurate advertising.

[Sarah977]

@Andrew2311  Can  you post the link to this listing so we can get a clear idea of what exactly is being advertised as space for guest use?

[Andrew2311]

Hey Sarah, sorry for the delay have been busy.

Here is the link to the listing, although it has been slightly modified since our stay it still does not properly address everything I believe it should unless they have since cleaned up and are putting the dogs up while guests are swimming, which is possible.

https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/47493468?source_impression_id=p3_1625007126_LT8OPAASrr3TX7wZ