Am I being unreasonable?

[Tiana1010]

Hi everyone,

Feeling at a loss with my current guests -two young female fashion students from India (21 and 24). They are renting a double bedroom at £30/night.

The first week was pretty tough as they basically completely took over the kitchen, but I did object and things have improved.

However they are constantly at home and seem to go to their uni about half a day a week.

A few days ago, I stipulated that they had to be out three days a week. Today their course was cancelled and they came straight home. I wasn't very happy and pointed out that they could go to a cafe or library to work this afternoon. They objected to this and said I am being unwelcoming. 

Breakfast takes about 90 minutes, dinner about two hours, washing up is never put away, bathroom is soaked after they use it, make up on the sheets, etc etc.

That's without mentioning the boiler that was unplugged during their first week, or the front door that was left open.

Am I being unwelcoming? I guess I feel they are expecting too, too much from a cheap airbnb. I have given them a month here even though I knew ten days ago they made me uncomfortable, because I know they are going to find it difficult to find anything else. Regretting it!

[Sarah977]

@Tiana1010  Accepting bookings that long in a home share is not a good idea. I would suggest you set your max stay length to 2 weeks at the most. A month is way too long to put up with objectionable guests.

As for telling them they have to be out 3 days a week, yes, you are being unreasonable. The amount you charge has nothing to do with a guest being able to use the space they paid for. You can't dictate that a guest has to be out of the house at certain times of day. And certainly not if you do not make that part of your house rules and clear in your listing description. And you should work out a kitchen usage schedule so you aren't inconvenienced in your own kitchen usage. 

What  I would suggest you do with these girls is sit them down and read them the riot act. They need to clean up after themselves in the kitchen and bathroom, not flood the bathroom with water, etc. And if they aren't willing to do so, and show respect for the fact that theey are home-sharing, you will need to shorten the reservation. 

If their behavior doesn't change, then I would tell them they have to leave and refund them the rest of their money for unstayed nights.

[Huma0]

@Tiana1010 

I understand @Sarah977 's point that "A month is way too long to put up with objectionable guests." However, I prefer long term guests and switched to hosting them almost exclusively. Like you, I have three bedrooms listed in my own home.

As for your current situation, no you cannot tell the guests how much time they should spend outside of the house. Neither can you limit kitchen usage after a guest has booked. They have booked your listing based on the amenities, description (and rules if they bothered to read them) and price advertised at the time of booking and you can't suddenly veer from that.

However, I do think it's reasonable to expect the guests to clean up after themselves and not to leave bathrooms soaked and sheets stained or the front door open. I think it's fair to remind them that the kitchen is shared and request that they don't take it over for hours at a time, as other people also need to use it.

One of the most important things I've learnt as a host is not to just assume that what is obvious to you is so to others. The behaviour you describe is not at all unusual in both short and long term guests. You have to spell it out, both on your listing and in your correspondence with guests.

Going forward, here are some suggestions if you want to continue doing long term stays, or even shorter ones:

With homestays especially, the listing and rules need to clearly spell out what you are offering and what you are not and also what is expected of guests in terms of their behaviour. I notice that your listings are lacking information and are inconsistent in the way that they're written. In one, you give a description of areas available to guests under the guest access section. In another you use this section to describe the location (wrong place - there is a location section for that). In the third, you haven't provided any information other than a one line description. You haven't added additional house rules to any of them.

Many people will find my house rules too long, but I have added to them over time based on common guest behaviours. It is also important because if you ever need Airbnb to help you out with a guest breaking those rules, the rules need to be already listed.

You don't need to go into as much detail as me, but think about the points you might have that would help to avoid this situation, e.g.

- Guests must clean up after themselves, especially in the kitchen and bathroom. This includes washing and putting away your dishes, wiping down surfaces and cleaning up any spills. Please leave the bathroom in a fit state for someone else to use, i.e. clean, free of hair and water contained to the shower/bath and sink only, not all over the floor.

-  Guests who stain bedding or towels with food, make up or other products will be charged a laundry fee or for replacement items if stains cannot be removed.

- Please ensure you always close the front door. You will be charged for any theft or damages that occur due to failure to do so.

- Please do not tamper with any heating controls. Ask me if you need it adjusted.

You get the idea. There also sections on the listing like 'other things to note' and 'guests must acknowledge' where you can add important info. If you don't want to go into too much minute detail, you can explain certain things in the house manual. However, I would advise putting anything really important in the house rules.

Many guests don't read the additional rules or the other sections mentioned above, but to me, this, together with the guest's communication prior to the stay, are the most important factors. I simply will not host anyone, let alone long term, if they do not confirm that they have read the full listing and rules. I also like to have a fair bit of communication with the guest so that I can try to gauge whether they are a good fit. Look out for red flags.

As for the make up, I have found it more of an issue with towels than bedding, but I now provide make up wipes in the bedrooms and I stick labels on them asking guests to use them rather than towels to remove make up. Even if they don't use the wipes, this seems to drive the point home and now make up stains are very rare.

You might want to consider a kitchen timetable, as @Sarah977 suggested, or limiting the amount of hours that the kitchen can be used, e.g. specifying, e.g. 30 minutes for breakfast and one hour for dinner only. If you do this, you need to be clear about it on the listing and ensure that the guest has understood it before booking.

[Helen3]

Great post @Huma0 

[Huma0]

Thanks @Helen3 !

[Sarah977]

@Tiana1010  I am also seeing inconsistencies in your listings. They all show photos of the living room, yet the living room isn't listed as common space on at least one of the listings (no reason you have to make the living room  available to guests- it can make you feel less taken over by guests to retain some spaces apart from your bedroom as not for guest use, but you do have to be clear about it).

@Huma0  Excellent suggestions. I know you do home share long term successfully, but did you start out with long term or short term? If a home share host wants to do long term, I wasn't really saying not to, but it would be easier to do with little hassle as an experienced host than for a relatively new one. I see @Tiana1010  has one review from early 2020 and then another 7 from Jan.2022. I assume ( maybe incorrectly) that she, like I and many other home share hosts, closed to bookings due to Covid, and are just getting back into it. It just seems to me like a better idea for a relatively inexperienced home share host to practice on shorter term bookings for awhile to get the communication methods and skills down for dealing with guests who don't know how to be welcome housemates.

Although I have a 2 week maximum, I've had several guests who I would have been happy to let extend had they wanted to, or had I had availability. One guest who stayed here several years ago, and who I got along with great, messaged me about a year ago, saying she was considering Mexico as a more permanent place to live, and wondered if I would be open to her renting here for several months while she looked for more permanent housing and got a feel for if she'd actually want to relocate, as her previous trips to the area had only been a couple of weeks each time. I was totally open to it, but she wasn't quite ready to commit, she was just checking out the possibilities.

[Huma0]

@Sarah977 

I started out with both.

I first listed my apartment briefly back in 2012, while I was waiting for the sale to go through. It was all a bit last minute but I managed to get a one week stay and a one month one. Both went smoothly, but I learnt not to rely on guests to wash sheets and towels, even though there was a laundrette on site! 

In 2016, I started listing rooms in my own home. My first stays were short, but pretty soon I got a couple of long term bookings. Of course, I was pretty nervous about it, but the first one (3.5 months) was already in the UK and came to meet me and see the house after he booked. I felt very comfortable with him, so that put my mind at ease and the stay went really well. The second one (5 months) was supposed to visit before the stay, but his trip to the UK was cancelled, so we had a long chat on the phone instead. Again, I felt very confident about the guest and it went swimmingly. I remained in touch with both, and both have been back to visit as friends, rather than paying guests. 

Since then, I've relied on correspondence with the guest to get a feel for whether they would be a good fit, but it's not a bad idea to have a phone/Zoom etc. conversation and I imagine a lot of guests booking long term, especially for the first time, would appreciate it.

At the same time, I also had short term guests and, as the listings became popular, there were no longer gaps in the calendar that allowed for longer stays. So, I hosted mostly short term for ages, but it really started to become like a job and also, I started to find it hard to relax in my own home with strangers coming and going so often. If I only had one guest room, maybe it would have been okay. Most of the short term guests were fine, but quite a few were definitely not.

When I took on a second job, I decided to focus on long term guests, with the occasional shorter stays to fill gaps in between, and now I very rarely open up the calendar for the latter unless it's going to be over two weeks. Of course, not all long term guests have been perfect. There was one who was asked to leave, another who left early (to my great relief) and one who I 'put up with' for a month but was glad to see go. The vast majority though have been a pleasure to host and several come back either to stay or just to visit. I'm in touch with so many of them.

For me the key is to be selective. With long term, you don't need a lot of bookings so, once you're established, you can afford to be picky, ask lots of questions, insist on your guest requirements and trust your gut instincts when you spot red flags or just think the guest won't be a good fit.  The last five guests that sent me enquiries/booking requests have all been turned away.

Of course, I've learnt a lot from having hosted so many guests when I was doing short term and, like anything else, you learn from experience and try not to repeat the same mistakes. My advice to a newer host wouldn't necessarily be to avoid long term stays (providing it doesn't put them in a difficult situation with tenants rights, local laws etc.) but to be selective, ask lots of questions and not use Instant Booking if they can get enough reservations without it. Or, if they do use IB, to not be afraid to use those  three penalty-free cancellations when they get a bad feeling or if the guest is unresponsive.

[Tiana1010]

Thank you @Sarah977  and @Huma0 . 

@Huma0 It is extremely helpful having your examples – I will endeavour to be as clear as possible! I admit I have avoided rules because it sounds controlling – but that’s partly why I am in this situation. I suppose I have also avoided them because it’s hard to put into words what you want. Basically, if someone seems sensible and sane, yes, they can cook themselves three course dinners in my kitchen. If they’re not, then I’m less keen! Interesting what you said about gauging them from the messages – do you try to keep them chatting before you accept the reservation, then?

I should clarify by saying I was fairly tolerant of the amount of time the girls were spending at home, until their next billing cycle came up and I told them that a condition of staying a further two weeks is that they go to their university (or anywhere) three times a week. 

How do you word it, if you expect people to be out and busy for a certain proportion of the week?

I am open to considering WFH, but I think it should be flagged as the exception and not the rule.

I’m afraid I do have to disagree on the time spent in the kitchen point though. I have been using Airbnb for about 15 years, and it has always been very clear to me that I am renting a room, not a whole house, and that leisurely three hour dinners with the kitchen door closed are not exactly appropriate!

[Huma0]

@Tiana1010 

I'm going to split my response into a few posts, as I seem to really be essay writing this evening...

Yes, I can see why you would worry about seeming controlling, but I learnt the hard way through renting out my rooms to long term lodgers that rules are VERY important. At first, I just assumed that most people would be civilised and reasonable, but that assumption came back to bite me in the backside (won't go into the horror stories here, but it was bad). 

Ever since, I have had clear and detailed house rules and it goes a long way. When I then started doing Airbnb, I thought I had to edit down those rules, but soon learnt that people do the oddest things. Well, at least to me they are odd, but there are cultural differences to consider, as well as just that not everyone sees things the same way as me, including UK guests! 

House rules are actually, for the most part, helpful to guests (and I have had several people confirm this) because it lets people know where they stand and what is expected and helps to avoid misunderstandings, awkward situations and unnecessary confrontations. If someone finds something objectionable in them, then they don't have to book, but if you don't make it clear and then spring it on them once they are already staying/need to reprimand them on behaviour they assumed was okay, it's going to create bad feeling. 

I do litter my rules with a lot of 'please do this, please don't do that' so that at least it sounds polite!

[Huma0]

@Tiana1010 

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@Tiana1010 wrote:

@Huma0Interesting what you said about gauging them from the messages – do you try to keep them chatting before you accept the reservation, then?

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Firstly, I am always going to prefer guests who voluntarily offer some information about themselves, e.g. tell me who they are, why they need a place to stay in London and what they plan to do here and why they chose my listing. If they have some questions to ask, that have not already been clearly answered in the listing, all the better, especially questions about whether this or that (reasonable request) would be okay. It shows that they are also making sure the listing is a good fit.

These tend to be the best guests and they usually have a nice manner and good communication. Couple that with some great reviews (or not as I don't mind accepting newbies) and we're almost good to go. All I need to be sure of is that they have read the full house rules and will let me know what time they'll be checking in. With guests who have actually read the full rules, I often don't need to ask these questions as I have an 'Easter egg' question in my house rules that they send the answer to.

So, if a guest doesn't provide me with the information above/doesn't ask any questions, just sends a brief message and expects to book, I will ask them. This often works out fine. The guest doesn't realise that I might want to know a bit more about them or that they need to click on links to read the full listing. Once it's pointed out, they're happy to supply the info.

Then there are the guests who send a request and then don't respond to any questions and the clock is ticking away. I will remind them to get back to me, but I will decline them if the 24 hours is almost up. 

Next are the guests who respond, but just don't answer the questions, no matter how often you ask (I had one of those send an enquiry today). Those will eventually get turned away. Poor communicators often turn out to be bad guests in other ways.

And of course, there are the guests who display obvious red flags in their messages.

On top of that, it's useful to ask guests to upload a profile photo (if they haven't already done so) and have their ID verified by Airbnb. Those that avoid doing this get turned away. Another useful thing to do is check not just the reviews the guest has received, but the reviews they have left for other hosts. This can sometimes be very telling! 

Basically, it's all about figuring out if the guest is going to be fun and easy to host or totally clueless and unable to digest information/follow rules or, worse, understands but has no respect for them (look for the red flags for entitled attitude). With a great guest, this whole process should take no time at all. When it drags on and on, then you already know the guest is going to be trouble.

[Huma0]

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@Tiana1010 wrote:

@Huma0

I should clarify by saying I was fairly tolerant of the amount of time the girls were spending at home, until their next billing cycle came up and I told them that a condition of staying a further two weeks is that they go to their university (or anywhere) three times a week. 

How do you word it, if you expect people to be out and busy for a certain proportion of the week?

I am open to considering WFH, but I think it should be flagged as the exception and not the rule.

I’m afraid I do have to disagree on the time spent in the kitchen point though. I have been using Airbnb for about 15 years, and it has always been very clear to me that I am renting a room, not a whole house, and that leisurely three hour dinners with the kitchen door closed are not exactly appropriate!

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I have been in similar situations myself and I also do not like it when it seems like guests are completely taking over the house.

It is tricky nowadays though. Although it used to be rare for my guests to be home that much as long term guests are usually working or studying, things have changed. Both WFH and studying from home are now very common. Since the pandemic started, I have more guests doing this than not.

I currently have a guest doing a full time bachelors degree. She only goes to college two mornings a week at the most, currently has next to no college work assigned to her and no real social life, so she is home almost all of the time and that includes cooking three meals a day and popping into the kitchen/diner (which is where I work) several times throughout the day. Well, I have just had to get used to it. It's not really her fault and I can't tell her to leave the house.

It might be a good idea to include in your description (and maybe reiterate this when corresponding with guests) that your listing is best suited to people who are out and about a lot, rather than working/studying from home. Before accepting a reservation request, you can also ask the guests what their schedule is going to look like during their stay.

As for kitchen usage, I am afraid you can't assume how you behave when staying at an Airbnb is how others will. I have experienced what you describe several times (although not the closing of the kitchen door, which does seem a bit weird for a shared space, but perhaps they are trying to minimise the smell of the cooking pervading throughout the house). By the way, Indian food typically does take a long time to cook. I've also hosted guests of other nationalities who just love to spend ages cooking and see it as a leisure activity/way to unwind.

If you have advertised the kitchen as available to guests, they are going to use it as much as they like, unless you specify otherwise. They see it as an amenity that was advertised and has been paid for, so why would they assume otherwise? They probably also see it as a place to hang out and socialise and don't expect to be confined to their rooms or spend money eating out, especially if they are students. Besides, long term guests are usually looking for a 'home away from home'. You say you have been using Airbnb for 15 years, but was that as a long term guest staying for one month or longer?

If you don't want guests treating your place as a home away from home, then probably long term isn't for you. Or, you just have to set boundaries from the beginning (i.e. in your listing).

I am not saying that it doesn't irritate me sometimes. It does. The main thing though for me is that the guests clean up after themselves. If their cooking is creating an excessive amount of extra cleaning for me, that's when it becomes a major annoyance.

[Sarah977]

@Tiana1010  I do tend to exchange several messages with guests when they request a booking and even after their booking is accepted and confirmed. So I get a pretty good sense of them.

I also am not a rule person-- in fact I have none, aside from the usual, no parties, no pets, no children. But as a home share host, it's not like guests can sneak in other people or throw a party, so those rules are pretty pointless.

We all tend  to think that if someone books a home share, that they would be respectful of shared space, personal boundaries, etc.  Unfortunately, that's not always true. Some guests appear to think that they can just act as if it is their home. Personally I have always gotten respectful guests and aside from a couple of incidents, have not had these sorts of scenarios. Some of my guests eat out and don't even use the kitchen other than to fill their water bottle or stash a couple of beers or some soft drinks in the fridge. Others loved to cook and made elaborate meals, but always cleaned up after themselves and didn't take over the space for hours on end. Or if they did make a big meal, they made enough for me, too, so I didn't even need to cook 🙂

So I have never had to make a list of rules, tell guests to wash their dishes, and so on. If something does need to be mentioned, I've just done that verbally and they have complied. "Oh, XX, I meant to mention that it would be better if you...." 

You can put wording in your listing description to market towards the type of guests you would prefer and who jive well with you and your lifestyle. Things like, "Please note that this listing is suitable for those who will be busy doing things outside the home for a lot of the time- sightseeing, attending school, participating in outdoor activities, etc. It is not suitable for those who will just be hanging around the house all day, day after day. If I wanted a roommate, I would not be listing a room for short term rental."

Your guests are young. They haven't enough life experience to know how to behave responsibly and not make pests of themselves. 

The oldest daughter of a friend of mine once said, after she had graduated high school and moved to the city where she was sharing a house with 5 other 18 year old friends, "They should have a required course in high school called 'Roommates 101". She thought it would be so much fun to share a house with her young friends, but found she was the only one who cleaned the kitchen properly or knew what a toilet brush was for, or not to leave clumps of hair in the shower stall that you are sharing with others.

I would talk to these girls with a certain amount of understanding, which may make them more receptive. "Look, I realize you gals are young, and maybe your moms cleaned up after you and didn't mind doing that. But if you are old enough to book an Airbnb for yourselves, it's important that you understand what is expected of adults in terms of cleaning up after yourselves, making sure to lock the door when you go out, and so on. If you aren't sure how to clean up in the kitchen and bathroom, I will be happy to give you a crash course in that, but you can't expect to book a home share situation and have me or others have to deal with your mess. You also need to be respectful of not taking over the kitchen for hours on end- it's great that you like to prepare your own healthy meals, but you are guests in my home and need to be aware that others want to be able to have the kitchen available to them to prepare their own meals.

I have no intention to be unwelcoming to you, but you have to realize that I accepted your booking based on you telling me you were going to be out at uni most days. I wouldn't accept guests who told me they were just going to be hanging around the house all day, that isn't the sort of situation I am interested in. All of my previous guests kept themselves busy and were out and about a lot of the time. So it's not that I'm not welcoming to guests, it's that I feel I was misled as to your intentions while here.

Maybe we can start over on a better note- you gals make sure to be respectful of how you use common spaces, and while of course you have the right to use the space you rented, try to find some fun and interesting activities to engage in outside the home if you aren't going to be going to uni, as you told me you were.  If none of this is something you are willing to be mindful of, it would be better if we shortened this reservation. "

[Huma0]

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@Sarah977 wrote:

Your guests are young. They haven't enough life experience to know how to behave responsibly and not make pests of themselves. 

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@Sarah977 while it shouldn't really be the role of the host to house train guests (and it's something I never considered I would need to do when I started hosting), sometimes a certain amount of this is necessary. 

A lot of young people have had their parents pick up after them their whole lives (I had one 20-something housemate who had never unloaded a dishwasher, even though there had always been one in his family home). Then there are cultures where it is normal to have (sometimes daily) house help, certainly in households where there is enough money to send the children abroad to study. I mean it's certainly not cheap to study in the UK, especially as a foreign student. In those, most of the kids have never had to lift a finger in their lives. 

Now, I don't see it as my job to be 'mum' and train these young people, but even more so I don't see it as my job to be 'mum' and pick up after them. So, a little bit of training is often the lesser evil! 

I do find that having some of this stuff spelt out in my house rules helps to avoid having to nag guests. Even if you say it nicely, if you have to keep reminding them, it becomes tiresome for everyone and sometimes very awkward. I also find it useful to gently and casually remind them of some of those rules during the house tour (the kitchen takes up the majority of time with that) so that it seems less like a set of strict rules and more like a guide to help them use the space properly. After that, with most guests, only the occasional gentle reminder is necessary. 

It also helps to lead by example. When I am occasionally too exhausted to wash my dishes/wipe down the counters straight away, I notice that guests also start to leave their dishes by the sink. Although I am going to sort out my mess pretty soon, they never get around to coming back to theirs. It's like they take it as a cue to not clean up after themselves.

[Jessica-and-Henry0]

@Tiana1010 

I used to host long-term guests ( up to 5 months) in my private room listing - most of my guests were exchange students, so I have a pretty good idea what you are experiencing. The last guest we hosted (pre-covid) was more or less exactly the same type as your current guests - this is a rant post from then.

https://community.withairbnb.com/t5/Hosting/mini-rant-about-current-guest/m-p/1156985/highlight/true...

I think @Huma0 and @Sarah977 have already given you some great advice and based on my experience, hosting long-term and short-term are very different. Guest expectations and behavior patterns are different because they are LIVING there, not just staying a few nights or passing thru so it's necessary to be (more) picky about who you will be sharing your home with. For shared spaces (especially kitchen) I think it's important to make sure the guest understands they aren't the only one who needs to cook meals and if they make a mess they need to clean up themselves. You really can't assume how guests plan to use your kitchen, or use other shared spaces like the living room. Henry and I had to add rules asking guests not to take naps on the living room sofa, not to eat instant noodle (ramyeon) on the sofa, and not walk around the house in one's underwear - common sense is NOT COMMON at all. Plus, people have different definitions of what CLEAN means. 

I have very clear, very long, very specific house rules that spell-out MY expectations regarding guest behavior while they are in MY home. Even with these rules, Henry and I have had our share of *problem* guests, but nothing we weren't able to manage in the end. 

Please feel free to take a look at my house rules and #Things to note# in my listing description (which are really really long) -  https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/17214396?guests=1&adults=1&s=67&unique_share_id=6580a321-72ad-42c4-bd0e...

[Huma0]

@Jessica-and-Henry0 

While there may be some parallels, the guest you described in that thread sounds way worse than these girls. These girls are behaving in a way that can be pretty irritating, but I've experience something along similar lines many times before. The guest you described was beyond tolerable (By the way, how did that work out in the end? Did she complete her stay?). I am not sure how you put up with it for so long. While I have encountered a lot of the behaviours you described, the sum total of them would have maybe broken me and driven me to chuck her out.