Electric cars

[Rusty46]

My guest is staying for three months and when I went by the unit I noticed an extension cord running from the outside outlet to their electric car.  What is the airbnb policy on guests charging their cars and not mentioning that they have an electric car...

[Marie8425]

@Rusty46

Electric  car charging is  a  Host  Policy not Airbnb

Like most Hosts, me included,  I  have not addressed this.

I am  guessing new guest..    

Do you feel comfortable just telling him the truth??   Didn't expect this/   Don't know what   the expense is?     If  you own  a   gas car you  don't   expect me to buy  gas so   yes not  telling  you was unfair.

[Shelley159]

Hi @Rusty46 

I am not in the US so please be patient if this is a stupid question! What is the issue, is it very expensive to charge the car? Or are you concerned about electrical hazard? I find some guests use a lot of electricity (heaters, air-conditioners, hair dryers, tumble dryer, etc) but the cost evens out over time as others use less. If I had been this guest I may not have known that I needed to tell a host about the electric car, so I'm trying to understand the issue.

[Rusty46]

@Shelley159 It increases the electric bill.  Not sure how much.

[Steve4372]

It depends on the charger and how much current it is drawing.  The NEC (National Electric Code) came out with a limit for EV charging of 80% of circuit capacity.  So, for a 15 Amp circuit, the charger should limit itself to 12 Amps.  Given that power = V x A, the wattage drawn will be 120V x 12A = 1440W.

Cost will depend on your local electricity rate, not just generation, as some try to claim when trying to minimize the problem, but distribution, taxes, etc.  In general, around 20 cents per KWh (Kilowatt-Hour).

The formula for cost is then 1.44 KW (=1440 Watts) times 20 cents per KWh = 28.8 cents per hour.  Many EVs arrive needing a good charge so you can assume that they are charging at full capacity while there.

In short, an EV daily charging cost equals 24 hours/day times 28.8 cents per KWh =

$6.91 per day.  If they are charging for 10 days straight (feasible using a 120v outlet and still not fully charged) it will cost you about $70.

That is outright theft to me.

[Terrill0]

Price per Kw is different Everywhere! 28.8 is INSane! Do you live in Hawaii? Our kw hour has fluctuated from 5.5 to 22.00… it is usually 8

[Steve4372]

You didn't understand my post.  I clearly stated 20 cents per KWh, not 28.8 (it's still there, unedited, BTW).  Where the 28.8 comes from, as I posted, is the 1440 Watt power pull when charging costs 1.44 KW times 20 cents per KWh which equals 28.8 cents per hour to charge.

Even if it were 15 cents per KWh the daily charging cost will be 0.75 (15 cents equals 0.75 of 20 cents) times $6.91 = $5.18 per day to charge.

Also, the 1440 Watt power pull is based on NEC (National Electrical Code) for EV chargers.  Many EV chargers can be set by the owners.  Some can be set top the circuit's full `15 amp capacity, or 15 * 120 = 1800 Watts.  If the EV driver does that the cost increases by 25% (the increase in wattage from 1440 to 1800).  The EV owner will also potentially damage the house circuit operating it at full capacity for lengthy periods (as the NEC states).

In short, no matter what the cost, it is still theft unless the owner agrees to fuel one's vehicle at no charge.

[Steve4372]

Because of your question, I decided to look up what I paid for my last electric bill (in the home state of President Biden, Delaware - where President Biden also has his beach house - Rehoboth Beach - power company Delmarva).  My bill is $116.77.  Energy usage (this is with EVs stealing electricity during a part of the time) is 678 kWh.

Therefore, my rate for this bill is $116.77 dollars divided by 678 kWh = 17.22 cents per kWh.

That's great that you only pay 8 cents per kWH.  Everyone at the DE beachs pay over double that.  Where do you get 8 cents per kWh, total power cost?

[Mary1523]

Hi, curious on the assumption that the guest would be charging every day? That's unusual. I have an EV and I don't charge every day? Especially as this guest is staying for 3 months, are they commuting or touring every day? It depends upon their usage, you can't assume anything.

I personally don't think its outright theft at all. I charge my EV at airbnb properties who don't have EV chargers and do not think twice about it. If the electricity charge was too high for the host, more fool them for not being selective about their electricity supplier and time of day rates, and off peak vs peak rates.  I ask my guests to charge their EV at my place at certain times of the day, and providing the feature is attractive, but as I explained above, trickle charging is not worth charging for. Guests can pay for fast or super charging for a far faster charge somewhere else.

If hosts are worried about EV Charging, they should state something upfront and I will be happy to comply (or not stay there if they were against it). And if i was accused of theft, I would not be leaving a very nice rating for the host either.

Let me also put this in context, I used to provide underfloor heating in an older style house, that cost me $80/day to run!  Or those who turn the aircon on and leave it running whilst out which can add up to $5-$10 per day. A cost is a cost,  it's up to the host to determine if it's a feature they support or not and how they want to charge, but it's not theft. 

Just another perspective for you!

Kind regs MK

[Steve4372]

"...curious on the assumption that the guest would be charging every day?"

I watched it happen as I have another home that I stay in behind this particular rental property.  It is a fact that they were doing this.

Yes, they kept their EVs plugged in 24/7.  Based on the engineering, charging from a 120V outlet will take many days at the (what should be) limited to 1440 Watts on a 15 amp circuit (USA - the NEC states this).

Based on your logic, if someone takes something without an agreement to provide it to them, it is not theft as long as the person taking it feels that they deserve what they took.  Yes, your logic says that if someone have a full gas can on their property, the driver of gas powered vehicles are free to empty said gas can into their car without paying for the gas if they feel that they deserve it.

Air conditioning installed in a home is a part of the normal home operation.  Unless a specific charger or gas pump is installed, filling vehicles with fuel that is on the property is not in any part of regular home operation.  When one doesn't understand this I can see how it would be confusing.

When someone is too lazy, or feeling too entitled, to drive less than two miles to a charging station, or gas station for a gas fueled vehicle, believing the they deserve to take fuel from someone else where taking fuel was not in the agreement, that's their problem and, yes, it is theft.

In the future, as power theft becomes more common, laws will probably be passed making it more clearly a criminal activity to plug EVs into whatever outlet they happen across, stealing fuel.

And, yes, I own an EV.  I don't steal energy to power it.

[Mary1523]

Hi

This is an interesting one. There's no policy. It's a feature you either offer, or don't. Disclaimer I have an EV. I fully expect that I will find a way to plug in my vehicle at the house. It's a different mindset. There is no direct comparison to hosts paying for my gas. This is a transformative technology, not an equivalent one.

People who buy EV's in early adopter tend to be more environmentally focused and/or purely done the numbers and realised its cheaper to run then combustion engine cars. And it's going to grow whether you personally agree or not.  You could say NO to charging EV's as a house rule but you eliminate a section of the market.

So as a host, you want to offer as much as you can without increasing your cost base.

So to the point of the other replies, what is the issue? Is your electricity bill going up? If so, do you have time of day different rates, perhaps you could politely ask if your guest could charge in off peak? It's like running a washer, dryer or other items. I would have thought as a host and looking at your cost base, you would be ensuring you are watching your energy consumption regardless, especially given the Texas electricity market is quite unlike others in the US.

Given the guest is an EV owner, they do have some idea of charging costs so they will likely be quite amenable to adjusting their charging times. It's too late to say no by the way. And they are probably charging once a week or so? Is it daily? Depends upon the distance they are travelling.

I once tried to charge for Caravans (RV's you call them) being plugged in to my property, and had a small daily rate. But the arrival of EV's have changed all that.

I have installed an EV charger which means I can tick the EV box that I provide a charger so people can search on it. It's provided for free. If you don't have that box ticked, it doesn't mean they  can't charge their vehicle at the property though. They'll find a way, like your guests have. I kindly ask the guests if using the charger to charge in off peak if possible.

I haven't had huge usage of my EV charger btw, but it's a feature to atrract bookings. Given its not a fast/super charger, just an 'everyday' charger but just a bit better than plugging straight into a powerpoint on a trickle charge, guests probably won't be wanting to pay for it anyways. As an EV owner, I will happily pay for fast or super charging, but not for trickle/slow charging. 

So the upshot is, you probably can't charge for any EV charging in a domestic usage, even if you install a EV charger, but you can appeal to the guest to charge at a time that's cheaper assuming you have setup your electricity metering like this.

Hope this helps

Kind rgs

MK

[Rusty46]

I think it adds $10 or $20 to the electric bill for each full charge, but I am not exactly sure.  I was curious to hear opinions.  I will keep the environmental and political aspects aside and I guess just increase my rate some to cover unexpected spikes in power usage, especially in the summer with the air conditioner running 24 hours a day. 

[Mike-And-Jane0]

@Rusty46 In the UK if a guest charged a 60kWhr Tesla battery it would cost 60x.3 or £18. The saving grace for you is that the charging rate from a household socket would mean it would take many hours to charge a Tesla.

In our West Wing listing we have a comment that guests may charge their cars but they have to pay for the electric. 

[Mary1523]

Ok. Sounds like though you don't have peak and off peak electricity metering usage? Or solar panels?

I ask my guests to only charge during certain hours in the day when its sunny so that it's free for them to charge, or overnight after 10pm when on grid charging kicks in and it doesn't cost us that much. Maybe this is unique to Australia I don't know. We are lucky to have plenty of sun.

If you can bump up your pricing without affecting takeup, sure. But I think less than 10% of cars on roads are EV's in the US so it's not going to be big, until it is.

You could turn this to your advantage, and explicitly state you support EV charging if you want to provide a 'full service type' listing and charge accordingly, or are you more budget, in which you ask for something extra up front before they book. 

I'm about to setup a capture form to collect more info from my guests instead of me asking all the time, and whether they have an EV and want to charge will be one of them.

Kind regs

MK

[Rusty46]

@Mary1523 Thanks for taking time to comment.

Rusty