Electric cars

[Rusty46]

My guest is staying for three months and when I went by the unit I noticed an extension cord running from the outside outlet to their electric car.  What is the airbnb policy on guests charging their cars and not mentioning that they have an electric car...

[Steve4372]

There is absolutely a direct comparison to refueling your EV without paying for the fuel (electricity) and refueling your gas/diesel car without paying for the fuel as well.  They are both taking fuel without paying for it.  It is outright theft.  What's bizarre are the people who pay $70,000 to $120,000 for their EV yet insist that others pay to fuel it for them.

My places are fully booked without EV drivers.  So far I've had two arrive and run extension cords into my house without asking. They are stealing fuel. They might try to justify it by saying "well, my car is a fancy EV so I deserve for you to pay for part of my life by refueling my vehicle for me" but that their entitlement problem.  Since most seem to have an entitled attitude I don't want them staying at my places because they will probably demand other things over and above a nice rental as well.

I will be disabling all outside outlets on my places this weekend and putting out cards showing where EV refueling stations are (some 2 minutes away).  I will also update the terms of my agreement, indicating that EV charging is not allowed.

[Mary1523]

OK I guess you don't have an EV?

We can have different perspectives and that's what's so good about Airbnb communities so we can have the discussion. Ultimately It is your choice as host if you make that house rule and make it clear BEFORE booking.. The customer and market will speak over time. It may not matter to some guests at all, it may matter to some others. The EV market is small at present.

I do think it's an exaggeration though to say most EV owners have an 'entitled attitude'. Maybe its different in the US, but many EV owners I have met whilst at charging stations, are good people. They don't have different expectations on airbnbs to my knowledge, and certainly those who have used my EV charging facilities at my property are no different. EV owners just treat electricity like its aircon or heating. Not a replacement for fuel. They would be aghast at being accused of theft! Infact, I actually would challenge that EV owners on the whole may consume less electricity for a stay than those who don't (because they know how much it costs, and tend to conserve more). Not all, but majority. They might be better guests to have? Curious if there any data points to contradict this?

Kind regs

MK

[Steve4372]

Your guess that I don't have an EV is incorrect.  There is no rule stating that owning an EV requires one to believe that taking fuel, at a real expense to the provider, without paying for it, is not theft.

What this keeps boiling down to is too many EV drivers **feel** that they deserve to have others pay for their fuel so they are simply going to take it.  They twist themselves into all kinds pretzel shapes trying to justify it.  But in the end, yes, it is called theft.  All are free to be "aghast" that theft (taking things without paying for them, without an agreement to take them without paying) is theft.

If an EV driver wants me to pay to fuel their vehicle gives me a bad review because I won't, I'm fine with that.

Please provide data points instead of speculation.  Why would you ask me for data when you provide none at all? I gave accurate refueling cost data already, BTW.

[Rebecca]

Hey @Rusty46 👋

You've had some wonderful support from some experienced Hosts here, and I wondered what you decided to do in the end with this guest? Have you changed anything in your listing in line with your decision? 

It would be great to hear from you, so we can hear what your solution was. 😊

[Rusty46 · Accepted solution]

Hi @Rebecca , I am not changing anything with this guest.  I will monitor the electric bill over the course of the guest's three month stay and possible adjust my pricing for future stays.

Thank you!

Rusty

[Lorina14]

@Rusty46 

EV charging is a host policy and one that you should address in your house rules. We have a level 1 or level 2 non Tesla charger that we do not charge for. My partner estimates it costs us $5/charge. You have to check your bill and the peak hours/non peak hours charge. That said I’ve read an older thread about this and read other listings and it varies depending on country. Electricity in Europe is much more expensive than the U.S. so most hosts there charge per charge for using EV charging. Some hosts in the US charge for it as well. So it depends on your preference. I’ve even seen hosts charge a per load fee for doing laundry $4-5/load, and while it is your choice, we don’t do it as we think it’s an amenity we provide free of charge with your stay. We certainly have looked for and appreciated hosts who provide laundry as an amenity while road tripping.  It depends how you want to run your listing and short term rental and who you are catering to.

[Steve4372]

I posted this above.  The calculation is straightforward when you know your KWH power rate.  In short, it costs about $7/day at 20 cents per KWh rate to have someone refueling (charging) their EV from your electricity. ten days = about $70.

Detailed explaination and calculation is below:

It depends on the charger and how much current it is drawing. The NEC (National Electric Code) came out with a limit for EV charging of 80% of circuit capacity. So, for a 15 Amp circuit, the charger should limit itself to 12 Amps. Given that power = V x A, the wattage drawn will be 120V x 12A = 1440W.

Cost will depend on your local electricity rate, not just generation, as some try to claim when trying to minimize the problem, but distribution, taxes, etc. In general, around 20 cents per KWh (Kilowatt-Hour).

The formula for cost is then 1.44 KW (=1440 Watts) times 20 cents per KWh = 28.8 cents per hour. Many EVs arrive needing a good charge so you can assume that they are charging at full capacity while there.

In short, an EV daily charging cost equals 24 hours/day times 28.8 cents per KWh =

$6.91 per day. If they are charging for 10 days straight (feasible using a 120v outlet and still not fully charged) it will cost you about $70.

[Steve4372]

I've replied with the cost calculation in a couple of places in this thread if you'd like to see it.  In short, assume about $7/day.

I believe that AirBnB must address this by allowing easy daily EV charging fees as part of the system if owners decide to allow EV charging from their homes.  A fee of something like $10/day is very reasonable.  It's all based on what your KWh electricity rate is.  You can purchase a 240V EV charging station that allows individual purchases but they are around $1000 plus materials and installation ($1500?) plus maintenance once people start using it.

The engineering side: Where things can go bad is that houses are not wired to continuously charge EVs with the standard 120V circuits.  House wiring circuits are not supposed to be run at full capacity for an period extended time - i.e. at 15 amps for hours on end for a 15 amp circuit.  The NEC (National Electrical Code) came out with a rule recently, requiring EV chargers to limit current draw to 80% of the circuit (15 amp is standard in a home with a few 20 amp circuits in the kitchen, etc).  So, no more than 12 amps for a standard 120 V outlet.  Where you can get in trouble is that many EV chargers can have their current draw set by the user.  They can set the draw to 15 amps (100% circuit capacity), potentially damaging your house wiring while it draws the max for the circuit for an extended period of time.

My rentals book solid with or without EV drivers.  After seeing a couple of people run extension cords up to outlets on my screened porch without asking, basically to steal electricity, fueling their $70,000, plus, EVs on me, I will be disabling those outlets and put in place a no EV charging policy.  There are multiple EV charging stations within a couple miles of my places.  EV drivers can use them just as gas/diesel drivers can go fill somewhere else.  If you don't want to properly fuel your EV and/or want others to pay for it but they won't, don't buy an EV.

To me, it's not about it "only" costing me $7/days to fuel EVs, and the potential wiring damage, it's about people somehow believing that they "deserve" to take fuel from me because ???  They don't deserve to take electric fuel any more that some one deserves to empty my mower gas can into their car when they see it.

[Mike3425]

@Steve4372: 

I think you are being a little bit ridiculous Steve in only calling out EV drivers "stealing" electricity. It is your listing, and you can do what you want but your logic is not sound. Unless you have a kWh limit on what electricity the guests can use, what does it matter what they use it for? If I go into your Air BnB and turn the AC on and run it at 65 degrees, vs. someone that opens the windows, it will consume more electricity than charging an EV will. Are they stealing electricity? If I bring a large portable charging station and charge that up each day it will consume a lot of power too, am I stealing electricity if I do that? What if the Airbnb I am staying at has electric heat and I turn it up to 85, am I stealing? Should I go on with every other possible way people can use excessive amounts of electracy, what about water, what if they take 6-hour showers, are they stealing water? That is the cost of doing business when you rent a place with utilities included, and most people understand that and don't call it stealing. 

There is also something really wrong with your logic about assuming that if a car is plugged in all the time that it is charging all the time, it makes me wonder if you actually own an EV, as any EV driver would know this. That is possible, but just being plugged in does not mean it is charging. I plug my EV in at night and just leave it plugged in until the morning, but it is fully charged and no longer drawing any electricity long before I unplug it. You put the absolute worst-case scenario with a level 1 charger. 1.4kW is the max draw, so sure if it was charging 24 hours a day it would draw just over 33kWh per day and that would cost $6 at the national average of $0.17 per kWh. So, the absolute worst-case scenario, if they never leave the house and charge it all the time is $6 a day depending on your electricity rates. 

Problem with that is that you can only charge up the EV battery to full and then if you don't leave to drive it at all it won't charge anymore. So, in reality your worst-case scenario is someone that manages to perfectly drive exactly the amount they can charge in the rest of the day and charges it the rest of the day. Your worst-case scenario that you got yourself so worked up about is maybe $3 a day

I don't disagree with you that an EV driver should probably ask you before charging up, but in reality, it is a tiny, insignificant cost. If you want to risk your business by being rude over $3 a day, totally your call, but I would not recommend it. 

[Steve4372]

You're being completely silly, Mike.  Knowingly taking (physically running a cord or fuel hose into their place, connecting to their fuel source) from others without paying for what was taken, when there is no agreement, is stealing.  Try to rename it (no, it's "saving the planet!") to something else if it makes you feel better but it is still theft.

I did the calculation for charging a vehicle at 80% of the 15 amp circuit rate.  It comes to roughly $7/day in my location.  The vehicles normally travel 150, or more, miles to get to this house so their fuel is fairly well depleted.  Why change that to $3/day, then in an attempt to minimize the issue?  At the slow charge rate of a 12 amps, 120 V, the EV, having driven 150, plus, miles to get to my place will not be fully charged in 24 hours, let alone two, possibly even three days (Tesla ModelS/Model X: 100kWh. Mercedes Benz EQS:115 kWh. Rivian R1T: 135kWh).  This is assuming that the EV just sits at the house plugged in 24/7, not being driven anywhere, requiring more charge time.

So, you ask, why would anyone get "worked up" over paying $210/month ($7/day, close to $1000/rental season) for EV owners to take from them when there are PLENTY of charging stations nearby (within 3 miles).  I don't know of anyone who is "worked up" over it.  I do know people who rationally think the issue through.  If EV owners don't like their charging infrastructure maybe they should, as about 50% of current EV owners are doing, reconsider whether they want to drive an EV or not.  But stealing one's energy from others is not the proper solution just as siphoning gas out of others' vehicles isn't the proper solution to being low on gas.

Letting vehicle owners know where the local gas stations are as well as local EV charging stations, is not "rude," as you put it.  To entitled people insisting that others pay for part of their life expenses, not getting them paid by others could be considered "rude" by them, I guess.  But the entitled types aren't the kinds of people that I  want using my nice homes. They normally demand much more than free fuel, or recklessly damage things then insist that they not cover the damage (they're special).

This boils down to a simple problem: Certain EV owners emote that they are owed free fuel.  The vast majority of all vehicle owners know that that's not true and gladly go pay to refuel their vehicles.  I'm perfectly fine if the few with the entitled attitudes don't stay at my place.  I have more than enough nice, non-entitled, people who book it solid already and it's not a risk to my business.

[Mike3425]

@Steve4372 

You are the one being silly. First you are again assuming the worst case scenario (it is apparently a pattern with you). Does every person showing up at your Airbnb have an EV, and every single one of the EVs that do show up are empty, and then they will leave exactly at the point where they are full again to just  have another person repeat the situation? You are being utterly ridiculous. I drive an EV and don't spend $1000 a year charging my car. We have been hosting on Airbnb for just over a year in Washington (one of the hotbeds for EVs) and a total of 4 people have had EVs in that entire year. Your numbers are assuming an insane worst case scenario that just is not realistic for anyone renting Airbnbs. Your math isn't the problem, your assumptions are. We offer for them to plug in for free, and it has affected my electric bill not at all.

BTW when I rent Airbnb's I plug in without asking in the garage, or carport if there is one and there is a plug. That is not stealing, and if you told me I was stealing for doing that we are going to have unfriendly words. I don't fill up from empty, but if I was driving around town, or when I owned my PHEV, I would top off. If you reported me or put in a review that I was "stealing" I would immediately report you for violation of Airbnb policies on reviews (lying), and possibly sue you for defamation and slander if they refused to pull your review (and I would win).  That does not meet the legal definition of stealing. You may find yourself kicked off of Airbnb as a host, as they really lean towards favoring the guests, not the hosts.

Let me give you my qualifications so you understand who you are arguing with. I have degrees in physics, mathematics, electrical engineering, computer science and business (at varying levels). I have been a professional engineer for 30 years and I have studied EVs since the Impact was first introduced by GM in the late 90's. We have been renting an Airbnb for 13 months and are a 5 star super host. We had super host within our first month of operations. We had that because we didn't do petty things and are really customer focused.

With your last paragraph the actual issue comes out, whether you own an EV or not (which I highly doubt), you are clearly anti EV and think that EV drivers are "entitled." I agree with you that if I was driving a full EV (not a PHEV) and pulled into an Airbnb empty, I would ask before plugging in and filling it all the way up (which as you pointed out on a 110 outlet would take days). It would be rude not to, but it is not stealing unless it is explicitly in your policy not to do so, and then I wouldn't be staying with you. Your comment that it is stealing, is also rude. Two people can be rude in a situation. 

Again, you can do whatever you want with your Airbnb, and it is your choice, but no one should be following your advice on this topic, it is very bad advice and based on inflated numbers that are completely unrealistic. 

[Steve4372]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. 

You say theft (knowingly not paying for something that one takes without being told that one can take it) is fine if it is done by people who drive electric vehicles. 

I say that theft is not fine. I don't care if it's a natural gas vehicle driver or an electric vehicle driver.

Then the bulk of the discussion is about trying to quantify the value of the theft.  But it is theft.

Thanks for the discussion!

[Mike3425]

@Steve4372 

It is not theft, and you have no idea what you are talking about. Why don't you ask a lawyer. It is assumed that people can use electricity when they rent from you. Unless you qualify for them in the agreement exactly how much they can take, or what they can and can't use it for, there is no violation of any contract, and it is absolutely not, by any legal definition theft. Next time it happens to you, why don't you try and call the police and have your guest arrested for theft... see if the cops think your definition is apt.

Again, and you clearly didn't read this, if I took the same exact amount of electricity as my electric car would take for some other activity (running heat or cooling, maybe running a hair dryer for hours on end), or I took the same value in water by taking super long showers, you wouldn't consider that theft. It isn't I that am calling out EV's explicitly, it is you that is. I am saying it is no different than any other excessive use of utilities. You are the one saying that it is only theft if the electricity is used for an EV. Stupidest argument I have ever heard. It was not a good discussion, it was a waste of my time, and I just hope no one is listening to you.

[Mariann4]

Hello @Mike3425 

I live in the city that has the WORLD'S highest density of EVs. The ratio of EVs sold in the new car market in my country is above 90% the last months. And rising. I have an EV myself along with a diesel. 

We've had, until the war in Ukraine, one of the world's lowest pricing on electricity. And our electricity is one of the cleanest and greenest there is. 

Yet. If you plug your car in any socket WITHOUT asking permission and the owner disagree you will get fined for stealing.

I don't offer my guests charging facilities. I have sockets in the garage that will not handle charging and black out the house if you try. So you should never plug your car into any socket before asking if it can handle it. This is also the way we handle it here: we ALWAYS ask first. But if asked, we almost never say no because it's hardly any cost with one simple charging (exept after the Ukraine invasion and new electricity regulations). But I have said no due to my grid can't handle it from the sockets available.

[Mike3425]

I think I mentioned that my comments were for most folks in the US. Yeah, there are different sets of equations and different laws for different countries (and even a few odd places in the US). I admit what I am talking about is mostly for the US. I don't think any reasonable person would expect what I said to apply to a war torn country, or a place where the houses have such poor electric infrastructure that you can't plug anything into it. But really a hairdryer will pull more amps than a car charger when it first spins up, so will a portable AC. I have never popped a circuit with my 110 volt EV charger. I have popped circuits with a vacuum cleaner, a hair dryer, a heater, a portable air conditioner, and various other things. My point is that if you have a problem plugging in an EV, you have bigger problems and should warn people not to plug anything in without asking. 

I don't believe you about being fined for stealing though, not without a link to the statute. Anyone can say anything they want, and I admit there are some strange laws in places, but I have never heard of someone that plugs in ANY appliance in a unit they are renting being charged with theft. In the US theft is a crime, not a civil infraction, and if the amount is large enough you can be jailed for it. It does not cover disputes that are considered civil, and 99.9% of the time what is being described would be civil in the US.