let's be careful out there

Lisa723
Level 10
Quilcene, WA
41 Replies 41
Susan17
Level 10
Dublin, Ireland

@Lisa723 @Inna22 @Christine615 @Mark116 @Susan1404 

 

....and this is exactly  the type of "Airbnb Party" that the Blacklist mods worked so hard and so tirelessly to get shut down... last night's latest tragedy.. 

 

Mass Shooting in Orinda - 4 Killed, Others Injured at Halloween House Party.. 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/4-people-killed-at-Orinda-house-party-reports-say-14767586...

@Susan17 my worst nightmare

@Susan17it boggles my mind that Airbnb refuses to be more accountable to its hosts.  Do they not realize that this impacts their own credibility!

From the article: "We don’t want local people to have a party there,” he (the owner) said. “We can’t control it. Airbnb does not release the customer information before they really book, so we have no way to know. We also tell them there’s a maximum (number of) people and no parties, but people lie."

 

We had a shooting in Toronto this summer at an Airbnb - in a very tony area...another "mansion party".

 

One would wonder how many of these stories it'll take before Airbnb actually does something about these kinds of parties - like actually vetting guests. I dunno - maybe the answer is actually to not list whole house rentals that can accommodate a large number of guests. It's a crying shame, but perhaps these types of accommodations are better served being listed on "higher end" sites.

 

Not to be a jerk (which means likely the following comment will be considered by some to be "jerkish"), but maybe the types of listings that often seem to be involved in situations like the above are simply not a good fit for a platform that started out as offering an air mattress. Maybe recognizing the inherent talent that humans have for taking a good idea and screwing it up through greed and selfishness is called for.

 

Geez, maybe I should take a walk, or have a glass of wine. Ooooooh...wine 🙂

@Jennifer1421  I agree with you. Not only are these whole house listings that are set up to house large numbers of people ripe for these kinds of parties, where the house gets thrashed and people may get hurt or even die, it's incredibly disrespectful to the neighbors and leads to cities banning or severely regulating Airbnbs, which causes even the hosts who never have these sorts of problems, and whose guests no one would even know are there, to suffer. 

I know there are hosts who are good at managing these types of properties, good at vetting their guests, and on top of squashing anything unreasonable, but there also seem to be a huge amount where the hosts either are clueless about how to make sure these things don't happen, or simply don't care as long as they're making money. Not only was Airbnb not set up for this, their ever-increasingly guest-centric policies make it more and more difficult to control what goes on in these big houses.

Yeah, wine sounds good 🙂

I think you've hit the nail on the head, @Sarah977 - Airbnb is simply not set up (and seemingly refuses to be set up) for the inevitable issues that can come from listing a "sleeps 16 people" type listing.

 

It's honestly hard for me to wrap my head around why anyone would have need of such a large rental. I certainly don't have 16 friends that I like well enough to travel with...but then, I'm kind of grumpy...

 

 

@Sarah977 @Jennifer1421 well... as someone who hosts a vacation rental of that magnitude (and knock-on-wood hasn't yet had a party problem)... Homeaway/Vrbo and other sites have been listing such homes for many years without this kind of problem. Cross-generational families and groups of friends like to vacation together and for this a vacation home that sleeps a lot of people in a great location is just what you need. I don't think it's the type of property that is the problem, per se. It's hard to pinpoint what it is exactly about Airbnb that leads to these issues, except possibly the very thing that underlies its success, making the whole transaction so frictionless.

That's an excellent point, @Lisa723 .

 

You mention Homeaway and VRBO - neither of which is very active in my market. I have looked at VRBO listings for my own vacations and the price point seems to be much higher. Maybe that's what it is about Airbnb and the "party problem". Since ABB has vastly more listings, creating a great deal more competition, prices are driven down in a market...which makes large properties a prime target for these predatory "guests". Could that be it? And, as you astutely point out, ABB is more popular because of the ease and lack of friction in booking, creating the market share that leads to the problem.

 

It's wonderful that you have never had a problem! Presumably you've got your "vetting" down to a science. Is that the case?

@Jennifer1421 no, I can't attribute it to vetting. I basically don't vet. I allow instant-booking and approve requests from anyone with verified ID or previous recommendations. It's probably more that the lakeside location is rural and remote, and we have a two-night minimum, and maybe most important it's evident on our listing that our local co-host is standing by.

@Lisa723  Maybe it's that Homeaway/Vrbo has always listed entire homes, doesn't try to micromanage hosts' listings, seems to have more respect for its hosts, doesn't seem to generate the review panic that Airbnb does, and actually allows you to charge a real damage deposit (this is what I've heard and read, I don't have  whole house listing so haven't had actual experience with them). Whereas Airbnb started out as a way to rent out shared-living spaces, then just got big and started not only accepting, but encouraging whole house, hotel , etc listings,  without ever changing its basic model. 

@Jennifer1421  I have a friend, who also hosts, who is part of a large family by marriage who get together for a reunion somewhere in the world every few years. They actually book places that hold up to 30! One of the family members always handles the bookings- and it's a booking that would send up huge red flags for most hosts. Not only does he ask the host for some flexibility as far as guest counts, as sometimes people plan to come who find they can't make it, but there are also those who say they can't make it, but might show up at the last minute. He isn't trying to get away with not paying for extra guests- these places often have a whole house charge, if not, he makes sure to pay for the guests who actually do show up. He also asks for the house to be stocked with a bunch of food, drinks, etc, so they don't have to go shopping right off the bat. However, he offers a very good renumeration for the hosts who are willing to do this. 

This group is all family, occasionally one of the kids or teens might bring a good friend along. So people of all ages. They're just there to have a good time together, all the adults are decent, responsible human beings, and all pitch in to clean the place well before leaving. They also always leave a sizable tip, like in the hundreds. 

So there are people aside from party animals who are looking for a big place to rent and not only don't cause any trouble, they make sure they behave such that they are considered to be good and welcome guests.

@Sarah977OMG - I would be so miserable with 30 family members in one place. I can't imagine a more evil punishment...

 

Please read that with the appropriate wryness with which it was intended - I have the utmost respect and appreciation for families that get along well together...it's just not my experience.

@Jennifer1421  Yes, well, Canandians also seem to have a larger than average "personal space". As in when you come within a meter of someone in the supermarket aisle, they instantly say "Oh, sorry" 🙂 When I was in Canada this summer, I started counting the number of times someone apologized for nothing more than standing or passing within a few feet of me. The average was 5 times a day.

 But I guess being overly, if nonsensically polite is preferable to being rude.

Helen350
Level 10
Whitehaven, United Kingdom

@Sarah977  Personal space eh? - So that's why a young Canadian couple slammed me , 3* overall - for not having lockable bedroom doors, and complained about another guest?!!!

@Sarah977 @Jennifer1421 @Lisa723 

It's not only very large properties that are being cursed with raging parties and anti-social guest behaviour - these are only the ones we hear about, the ones that actually make the news.

 

Every night of the week, in every market, you have guests cramming 20 or 30 of their closest buddies into homes with a 4 or 5 guest maximum, and partying the weekend away. It's totally irrelevant to them that there aren't enough sleeping spaces - who ever goes to a party to sleep anyway? We rarely get to hear about these instances - it's usually only the neighbours and emergency services that are painfully aware of them.

 

I can cater for up to 12 guests at a time, and have been doing so since the earliest days of Airbnb, and I can tell you, it's a thousand times harder - and more stressful - to operate now, than it was even 3 or 4 years ago. For starters, with the combination of the "non-discrimination" policy, and the dreaded Instant Book (a necessary evil in saturated markets), it's become next to impossible to turn away guests that you just know are going to be trouble, and would have immediately rejected in the past. (Just try calling CX to claim one of your 3 free IB cancellations these days - they'll do everything in their power to try and force you to honour the booking)

 

As for vetting guests - the only way to do it, is to check their ID yourself. Airbnb lulls users into a false sense of security with their worthless "verified ID" scam, and hosts naively trust that the people turning up at their door, have been comprehensively checked out by Airbnb. That's not the case of course, and I've posted many times about Jumio, the dodgy third-party outfit to which ID verification is outsourced, and whose founder recently paid out $17 million to settle a fraud charge. I wouldn't trust that lot to verify my library card. 

 

There has, undoubtedly, been a seismic shift in guest behaviour too, and that has become much more apparent in the past 12-18 months. Whereas before, the vast majority would respect a property as someone's home, and treat it accordingly, now a lot of them are acting as if they booked a crash pad for the weekend, and should be permitted to act and behave in any d*mn way they see fit. 

 

By far the biggest - and most detrimental - change that I've observed, is that so many of the guests are so very well acquainted with Airbnb's T&Cs, and will shamelessly use them at every given opportunity, to try and bully/manipulate the host into bowing down to their ludicrous demands. They're fully aware that if they turn up with more guests than booked - and play dumb - that Airbnb will pressurise the host into taking them. And they also know that no matter how badly behaved they are or how much damage they cause, that even if they do get turfed out by the host, there's every chance that they'll get a refund anyway, and nine times out of ten, Airbnb will find them a new place to stay too. And sometimes, they'll even throw in a nice little 10% bonus on top, for the poor guests' "inconvenience"

 

The entire crux of the problem is that Airbnb, through their skewed policies and practices, have deliberately shifted the balance of power fully away from hosts, and onto the guests. And boy, don't the guests know it. Hosts, unfortunately, are paying an unbearable, unsustainable price for Airbnb refusing to hold rogue guests accountable for their actions. And it's only going to get worse.