Towards a transparent standardised protocol for indoors CCTV surveillance

[Patricia1644]

After a terrible experience with misleading disclosure of indoors CCTV recording I became aware of the vulnerable position guests can be subject to when guidelines are not clear. Although Airbnb was supportive, this support did not come soon enough and a more vulnerable person, without the means to afford two accommodations simultaneously while the case was being considered, would have been forced to stay in an unsafe situation.

I would appreciate your opinion both as hosts and guests and any point that I may not be considering or may be wrong. I would appreciate if you would share circumstances where indoors recording have been used in detriment to the guests, hosts?  I see Airbnb hosting is very important to many and I so far, think Airbnb is honestly willing to listen. It is in the interest of us all (hosts and guests) we make this community as safe as possible - in particularly for vulnerable young women that could fall prey of indoors hidden surveillance.

1- Disclosure should not be limited to mention  the presence of CCTV recording in a certain room.

2- Instead it should be made immediately clear on the entrance door that there are operational CCTV within the house.

3- Within the house the/all camera/s should be individually signposted.

4- A screenshot in the contract illustrating the resolution, field of view and depth of focus of images taken from such cameras.

5- Photo or video of the device relative to the listing (for example, if it is in the living room, please take a photo showing where in the living room it's located).

6- Model number, manufacturer, buttons, screens, digital or analog recording tape, power sources, and anything else that would make it clear what is being recorded and how would that information be seen by the host.

One would understand that a bank does not want to disclose its security devices but here, we are offering a place to live based on a level of mutual trust that is not applicable for commercial interactions. The camera I was affected by was so powerful I could clearly see the adjacent room (although that room/s was not listed as containing surveillance), I could have easily been naked in that second  'accidentally' recorded space. The computer screen and keyboard are also discernible therefore passwords could be deciphered while typing. The making and display of the camera caption is necessary as well to understand the information it stores. I see from the caption sent to us from such device that sound recording is also possible (this certainly is totally unacceptable), that this was a closed circuit where the camera in question is coded as R2 meaning there are other cameras in the property.

This standardized protocol of disclosing surveillance should be either presented by the host or demanded by the guest but above all Airbnb should enforce and make mandatory greater openness and transparency in indoors surveillance.

With best wishes-Patricia

[Helen3]

Sorry I can't agree with any of your suggestions @Patricia1644

You had an awful experience because you had an awful host.

i think the current arrangements Airbnb has already put in place for highlighting whether CCTV or similar operates in a listing is enough for guests to make an informed choice as to whether or not they want to stay in a property which has CCTV.

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s-rules-about-electronic-surveillance-devi...

If this is then a concern for the guest, they either don't book the listing or you can message the host in advance to find out more about where the CCTV is located (this can only be in communal areas such as hallways/living spaces). 

I think the vast majority of guests choosing to stay in a space with CCTV would understand it would be running 24/7 and any communal space  could be seen. Therefore any of the recommendations you have made would not be required. I don't agree that sound isn't required.

On a personal level, I think CCTV inside a listing is completely intrustive and would never choose to stay in a listing that has it.

If a guest chooses to stay in a listing that has it, this is something they need to take into account in terms of their privacy/issues to do with their computer security etc.

[Patricia1644]

Thanks Helen.

What do you think sound is required for?

[Mark116]

Off the top of my head, sound would be helpful to substantiate any noise complaint that might be made by neighbors.  

As I said on your original thread, I would not stay in a place that had cameras inside the house, I might even question whether I would stay at a place that had external cameras depending on the situation.  But, I do think that airbnb current rules are sufficient, hosts have to disclose the existence of cameras in the listing...so guests will know before hand.  I may have been mistaken that airbnb also mandates signage on location for the presence of cameras, this is something that I would agree with, as it helps guests better understand what might or is being recorded.

[Patricia1644]

Thanks Mark. If the sound is required for potential excessive noise, then the recording level should be lowered such that a conversation mantained at ordinary decibel levels is not discenable.  This should also be stated.

[Patricia1644]

I would also like to point out that inspite of the current arrangements Airbnb has already put in place for highlighting the potential presence of  CCTV- this is not a searchable feature when looking for a property and is usually disclosed once money has been taken from your booking. You can then go and cancel- but all this is retrospective action. I am looking for forward and transparent action.

[Mark116]

@Patricia1644  I believe that is incorrect, airbnb mandates that the presence of cameras is disclosed in the listing itself, so everyone could see it when browsing, not only after a confirmation.  I believe the only things that guests don't see until after booking is the street address and if the host has put in a host manual.

[Patricia1644]

Thanks Mark, I have now checked again . When you search for a property you can add extra filters. In terms of relevance to my topic you can search for: wireless, Buzzer/wireless intercom (whatever that means) and even smoke detector but there is nothing about indoors surveillance. 

You cannot search a property based on presence or absence of indoors CCTV recording. I now manually scrolled through several properties and did not find any so far that discloses in the listing the use of CCTV. Some mention the use of Lock on Private room for safety and privacy.

If you find an example of forward disclossing in the listing, have time and you are willing to, could you let me know?

thanks again.

[Mark116]

I think it is part of the  house rules/guest must acknowledge section...the same place where if there are pets/stairs/noise it is disclosed and guests acknowledge it when booking.  

There are several threads on this forum that talk about cameras, hosts that do or don't use them and some hosts that have been disciplined by airbnb due to complaints even though they have disclosed the cameras in the listing.

[Jeff158]

@Patricia1644 I would not stay anywhere with internal cameras.

CCTV is mentioned in the house rules which have to be agreed to before you can book.

I think the bigger question is, are you staying in a domestic property or a commercial property with airbnb, and different rules apply to commercial activity verses domestic.

[Patricia1644]

Thanks Jeff- I cannot find any property in where CCTV is mentioned among the ammenities or safety features of the house before you make a reservation. You cannot search Airbnb based on presence/absence of indors survelliance.

[Helen3]

Sorry @Patricia1644

You are incorrect, as already stated there is a section on a listing which hosts need to complete to declare whether they have CCTV inside or outside the property so a guest would know before  they book whether it is present.

[Patricia1644]

Ok, may be my host was completely corrupt and that is why Airbnb ruled in my favour but I have documentation to show that CCTV cameras were only disclosed once my deposit was taken from my credit card. However, I would not want to make this the point of the discussion. 

Lets disagree on this one- indoors surveillance is not a feature on which you can search properties listed in Airbnb.

[Helen3]

You are right you can't search for it because it is not a facility that the vast majority of guests want so there is no need to have a search function for it.

If you were unhappy about the prescence of CCTV once it was disclosed, you could have got a full refund and found an alternative.

As I have already mentioned, it sounds like you had a dreadful host who went against Airbnb's T&Cs. That is not a reason to create a whole new layer of bureacracy for hosts to go through.

[Sarah977]

@Patricia1644  No, there is no filter for it. But hosts are required to disclose the presence of cameras in their listing description and it is the guest's responsibility to read through the entire listing description thoroughly. That means clicking on "Read More", and scrolling all the way down to the bottom of the page.

If a host has CCTV inside or outside the house, but doesn't disclose it in their listing description, then Airbnb would side with the guest and you'd be justified in demanding a refund. Also the host will be taken to task by Airbnb, perhaps even have their listing suspended.

Otherwise, if it was mentioned in the listing info, and a guest just missed reading it, that's not the host's fault.