I had a guest instant book for a checkin today. We have a st...
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I had a guest instant book for a checkin today. We have a strict 4pm checkin time & they showed up at 2:15 saying they chose ...
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I thought it was worthwhile sharing a horror guest story with the Airbnb community. Having read many similar stories on community I know this sort of thing thing happens alot, but my concern is that the Airbnb feedback system actually leads to hosts not appropriately "outing" poorly behaved guests for fear of retibution feedback, which is the exact opposite of the stated intentions of the feedback system. Grab yourself a coffee and have a read!
We have a lovely little cottage in the Blue Mountains in NSW, Australia. It is in Blackheath, the highest suburb in the mountains at about 1050m above sea level and experiences a very cool climate, similar to mid the northern UK. Winters are cold, and the absolute worst it gets in mid summer is about 30 deg c. Thus houses are designed and built for the cold weather, similar to the UK, with very few (if any) with air conditioning for cooling or fans (ours doesn't - or didn't!).
In January we had a guest stay for 3 nights who on the surface looked like a model guest - 6 references, no problems. We've since leant that because she had 7 reviews one host had previously given her a thumbs down (you live and learn!), with no comments written.
At the time she stayed nearly all of Australia experinced record heatwave conditions. It was 46 plus in Adelaide (highest temperature ever recorded) and 40 plus in nearly all capital cities. The heatwave made worldwide news - my parents in the UK got wall to wall coverage of it for a few days. The moutains in NSW only got to about 31-32.
On the day this guest was to arrive my co-host and I had a discussion, and we agreed it would be good customer relations to go out and buy a fan for the living area of our cottage (addmittedly in the long term it would get very liuttle use). Nights would be fine as it ALWAYS cools in the evenings in the Blue Mountains. She rushed out got the fan, got it back and set it up in time for the early check-in we had granted the guest of 1PM (check-in at our Coittage is normally 3PM) . We all felt good that we had done a nice gesture for what was an extrordinary situation that clearly was not our doing. It sent the guest a note telling her what we had done......no reply, that's strange.
The guest checked in at 1PM as we had allowed and all seemed fine, until at 6PM (yes 5 hours later), our co-host received a phone call from the guest. Instead of thanking us for buying a fan just for her 3 day stay, she unleashed a vitriolic tirade saying this was not good enough and demanding that we IMMEDIATELY purchased more 2 more fans for the house. The temperature at that time was just under 30 deg c. Her tirade of demands and abuse was so damaging it almost reduced our co-host to tears (she was really shaky when I spoke to her on the phone), and was left thinking that if we didnt meet her demands we would receive very nasty vitriolic feedback (our cottage has 96% 5 star rating). We were lucky she didnt resign on the spot. NOTE THERE IS NO MENTION OF FANS BEING PROVIDED ON OUR LISTING, AS THEY ARE NOT GENERALLY NEEDED, AND LONG TERM SIMPLY CLUTTER THE HOUSE. Our co-host rang us and we immediately called Airbnb for advice (bad move). They couldnt care less and when we discussed the feedback issue with them they were clear that adverse feedback for this would not be removed from our listing. It didnt seem to matter at all that our listing was correct, that she clearly hadnt read it, and the demand was somewhat unreasonable. So we were copping abuse and being held to ransom because of an unprecdidented record breaking weather event that was making worldwide news! The nice gesture of that morning (without being asked) had reverted to ancient history at this point.
So I called the guest and copped the same tirade that our co-host had suffered. Never once was there a thanks that we had purcahse and installed one fan that morning - it simply was not good enough and more had to be purchased immediately. I explained to the guest that the department stores where we would purchase the fan had closed for the night (remember she took 5 hours to call us) and that we would go our first thing the next day and purchase two more fans. I was left in no doubt that if I didn't we would be getting really bad feedback, and that even if I did purchase them we still may get bad feedback. So much for our dream of helping in a small way to showcase Australia's Blue Mountains to Aussiies and the rest of the world - that dream, after 12 months of dealing with Airbnb is a bit of a nightmare. We struck an agreement with her that we would purchase them and bring them over first thing in the morning, and explained that the mountains would cool to under 20 overnight, and explained that all doors and windows have screens and a lovely breeze comes through the house when they are opened (that is the design for cooling the house and in 15 years of ownership we have never had a problem previously). All seemed OK at the end of the call.
About 2 hours later we received another call from her husband (presumably because they had realised she was incapable of talking to people in a civil and courtesour manner). He announced that they had broken our previous agreement and gone to a supermarket and bought the first cheap, crappy fans they could find. Certainly not what we would have purchased. He was seeking agreement for compentation. We had been stood over and knew we had to agree to this. We asked could they provide us with the reciepts and we would certainly compensate, to which he agreed. We followed this with a text later wishing them a great trip and hoping they settled in OK, and with an email the next day which confirmed our agreement, and providing some tips for good things to see and do during thier stay.....no reply, and certainly no word of thank you.
Still no replies and certainly no receipts (they are required for tax purposes) three days after they have left, so we are now wondering what to do regarding the compensation. We are now in a quandry, again they have not stuck to our agreement and we are wondering if we continue to wait for them to provide what was agreed (writing to them is no use as they have not replied to anything) we run the risk of them leaving bad feedback to the effect that they "had" to go out and buy fans and were not compensated (don't let the truth get in the way of a good story - and we know from lenghty discussions with Airbnb this feedback would not be removed). So again we call Airbnb (bad move). Talk about a "maybe', "maybe not" attitude. Initially they said just wait, and when I put to them the theory about feedback, they then said just compensate them without the receipts. Which we did, based on a verbal cost we had been given on the night of purchase. Our conscience was clear.
Now the mexican standoff over feedback begins. We were itching to warn other hosts but we knew from the discussions that vitriolic feedback (which we would have bucklies of getting removed) was only a click away. And as they days went on and no feedback was posted we knew they were keeping it up their sleeve in case we told the story via feedback (and they knew what their behaviour had been). No feedback, no emails nothing. Throught the 14 day period we decided that it wasn't worth risking our good reputation, and knowing THAT AIRBNB DID NOT HAVE OUR BACKS we decided not to leave feedback, and simply prevent her from ever coming near us again. It pained us to do this because no other host should have to put up with this abhorent behaviour, but AIrbnb's feedback system and attitude omongst its staff simply encourages this.
17 days after our evening discussion with her husband (yes just outside the 14 day review period) we "suddenly", out of the blue get a note from her saying sorry for the late reply and she would send through the receipt. So now we oficially know we are dealing with a "player" who was waiting for the period to end before she contacted us. We replied saying we didn't need it any longer, we'd worked around it, and then proceeded to block her, which was the only course of action left open to us to get her out of our lives.
And you know what, Airbnb's whole feedback system actually encourages and rewards this disgusting behaviour. The fact is that "players" like this know the system and its gross flaws, exploit them, and can ruin your business and you have absolutely no comeback - in fact the attitude from Airbnb consistently is "too bad, so sad". Having read many community threads I know this is happening worldwide - owners need to be telling their stories like this more and more to Airbnb.
And until Airbnb start showing some respect and support to owners who have 100's of thousands of dollars at stake in this game, they are going to get people walking away and using their money for more productive, and less risky ventures (note the risk here is being amplified by Airbnb's policies and attitude). I have not seen one ounce of care factor, support or undertanding for an owners plight in the 12 months I have been with Airbnb. In fact we have experienced in that 12 months 4 major software failings that have all cost us bookings (the latest is Airbnb have turned off our instant book) that have cost us significant income. Again "too bad, so sad" and if you get any meaningful action out of them inside 4 phone calls you deserve a medal!
Hope you enjoyed your coffee!!
Thanks for all the support.
WE reported them to Airbnb and our attitude is Airbnb should be dealing with them so all hosts dont have to deal with them. They should never be allowed to book again. That is a much better outcome that hosts having to sift through reviews and determine suitability themselves.
Talking to Airbnb, which do quite frequently, and regret it nearly every time, it is clear that you also have to be super careful what you say in the review. We did discuss the review with them and Airbnb made it very clear that our review could have been removed if we'd mentioned what they said over the phone because it was a PHONE CALL and ulimately it was our word against theirs!!!! The concept of "why would these people have rung us to discuss all this if it wasnt true" didnt seem to get through their heads. As I said the average call centre person at Airbnb doesnt have a practical bone in their body, and does not live in the real word.
We stand by what we did, and it is driven by the hoplessly guest-weighted Airbnb system. The best outcome is to have them removed forever by reporting them.
Dont shoot the messanger here guys!!! No one has supported us on the total inadequancy of the Airbnb feedback system (which is what we were trying to achieve) and that it encourages this outcome, instead wanting us to commit hotel suicide, on the back of making no money from a guest from hell!!
I have no faith in Airbnb supporting hosts whatsoever. They refused me any of my damage deposit after my very first guest smoked drugs in my apartment. They refused my claim because I had not provided photographic evidence (of a smell???) And because they couldn't contact the guest......less than useless in my opinion
Nicky, we feel your pain. Thanks for the feedback
Take care
@Sarah-And-Tom0 While I understand you were trying to avoid a bad review, as other hosts have voiced, you did a disservice to other hosts by not reviewing these guests.
"WE reported them to Airbnb and our attitude is Airbnb should be dealing with them so all hosts dont have to deal with them. They should never be allowed to book again. That is a much better outcome that hosts having to sift through reviews and determine suitability themselves."
I totally agree with this, but just because this is your attitude, doesn't mean that Airbnb will ban these guests (I'd be willing to bet they won't) , so this approach, rather than submitting a review to warn other hosts really didn't accomplish anything. Not saying you shouldn't have reported them, but also left a review.
And to me, there is a vast difference between being a nice, accomodating host and allowing oneself to be treated like a doormat. So going out and buying a fan for her before her arrival was being accomodating, responding to her demands for 2 more fans by saying you'd get them the following day, falls into the second definition. These kinds of unappreciative, demanding people will never be satisfied, will almost always leave bad reviews even if you jump to meet their every wish, so it's pointless to put yourself out for them.
"No one has supported us on the total inadequancy of the Airbnb feedback system (which is what we were trying to achieve) and that it encourages this outcome, instead wanting us to commit hotel suicide, on the back of making no money from a guest from hell!! "
There are endless threads on this forum with hosts decrying the faulty review system. I don't know why you would think your ideas aren't supported.
I know everyone is trying to help, but at this point we feel that we are now being hammered by other hosts for sharing our story. It is now getting a bit personal.
We are trying to learn, just like everyone else. So, since the overwhelming attitude has been we should have left feedback regardless of the impact on our business (our livelihood), and the ability to put food on the table (noting that Blue Mountains is an extremely competitive area with 300+ houses on Airbnb in our area) I put to the community the 2 options for the feedback (for our future reference):
1. Tell the story about the phone call as it occurred and leave a thumbs down (knowing from strong advice from Airbnb that it is highly likely it would be removed as it was a phone call, not in writing)
2. Leave a statement like "It is impossible to recommend this guest to other hosts" and leave a thumbs down knowing this wont be removed but lacks detail. Weve done this before, the guest tried to have it removed and failed.
Option 1 could leave us with no feedback at all, and obviosly a smashing ourselves, which is far worse than where we are now. Option 2 gets it on the record but doesnt get the message across. ALL THIS FOR SOMETHING WE WERE NOT IN CONTROL OF, THE WEATHER, AND DID NOT ASK FOR.
Remember in our original note I mentioned this guest has 7 reviews, but 6 recommedantions (you had to be very experienced and know what you are looking at to have picked this up). We believe that the 7th was a Thumbs down with no words in the feedback. Pretty subtle eh, and it disproves the popular theory that leaving adverse feedback helps other hosts. Didnt help us did it.
Seems being nice to guests = you are a doormat!!
Sincely
A. Doormat
PS this is tongue in check, we are very interested on the communty view on the risk v reward approach to the format of the feedback (ie Option 1 v Option 2 or any other option) .
All roads lead to the crap system. And individuals suffer as a result. Typical IT in the year 2019.
I have some reget sharing this story.
@Sarah-And-Tom0 If it helps, I have done the same as you, not left a review because I knew it would prompt one in return.
I had a guest whose husband had booked our holiday home for a weekend. 'Princess' obviously wanted to say at the Hilton so made up a story about the shower being dirty but she didn't know that I had helped our cleaner that day by pure chance., so I knew the shower was clean! Long story short, she canceled (with my help, I didn't want to host her) and neither of us reviewed each other. I don't feel guilty as her husband will never dream of booking another Airbnb for his 'Princess' who left him in no doubt that nothing less than the Hilton will do, so no other host will have the 'pleasure' !
If I knew 100% when the last second of the 14 day review period was, I would have left them a stinker review then, but I'm afraid I have no faith in Airbnb website not being 'buggy'.
Here, here Denise, and thanks for the words of support.
We have also had a guest who tried to extort us money for cleaning based on photos she produced 5 days after she had left (not a mention of a problem during the stay). They were fabricated, as similar to you, as I had been at the property prior to her arrival and knew they were bogus (so had our cleaner and our co-host).
We held firm and left her a bad review.
Maybe we are only half a Doormat!!! (see previous threads)
Ive also been reading this morning that the star review and Thumbs up/Thumbs down review system for guests may be being removed, so all the strong opinions we've received in this thread on leaving a review are somewhat watered down in the effect they would have (if it would have any affect at all).
One thing is certain, all hosts want this sort of scum removed from the system - the debate is about how best to do it, in the face of a company that simply wants to give the guest more and more disproportionate power.
Tough business we are in, but thanks again for your support.
Guys, nobody else can tell you how to run your business....except maybe the ATO!
You have to make the judgement calls that are best for you, and I can totally undertstand the path you have gone down and if I had been in that situation I probably would have done the same thing.
People are voyeurs, they like to see a bit of verbal biffo, I do too, but in the great scheme of things I am not sure how many hosts actually study a guests past history.....I don't, or I very rarely do! I look at the wording of their request or that first IB message that they send me and I make a decision to host from that. I find the review system to be this 'euphoria' where we all pat each other on the back and say what wonderful individuals we are because Airbnb will take a big stick to us if we don't! I don't feel there is a lot of genuineness about the reviews system and only use it for me own ends...to keep those bookings coming!
It is probable that with the oversupply of hosts in the US and Europe guest bookings are down to the point where a host will accept anything into their property that has the ability to pay, and it is also probable that scrutiny of guests past records is not what it would have been a year ago!!
Sarah, or Tom, don't be to dis-heartned by the comments here, I feel you did the right thing in reporting them...you found them unsatisfactory and want them off the platform, can't criticise you for that! In isolation your reporting them will most likely not see them removed from the platform, but a black mark will be put against their profile and if another report or two comes in regarding them, then there is every chance you could get your wish!
I am absolutely not jumping on the review bandwagon here but, in future if you feel less than enthusiatic about saying something just keep it short and along the lines of...."I wish this couple well for the future but would decline the offer to host them again"! That's it, we are not fools, that tells us the experience did not go well and it gives them absolutely nothing to strike back at you with.
Just love your part of the world, just keep doing what you do so well, good luck guys!
Cheers......Rob
Thanks for all those kinder words Rob, and the suggested wording for a review.
There are times in this business where you feel the world is against you - Airbnb clearly dont care and support owners and hosts, and by their actions (on non actions whichever the case may be) they encourage this sort of behaviour. This is one of our first detailed posts and we simply wanted to share our story, our thoughts and our decision making process with the community to get their thoughts - and boy did we get them!
Yes, we have been taken aback by some of the posts in this thread, and your words are a lovely breath of fresh air. We aren't stupid and know our area and our business and certaintly gained a good understanding of where Airbnb stand with these type of people before acting. After collecting all our facts we made a measured decisions as to what to do. It is pure subjectivity regarding whether we took the right path or not, and for that matter what the right path is to achieve the desired outcome. One thing we did learn is guests have far more chance of getting feedback removed than hosts do.
One thing I do know about this guest -its unlikley this is a one off (unless they are jeckle and hyde) - so eventually it will catch up on them. Its called Karma.
When I worked in a senior role in a large organisation we used to have a saying - systems and targets drive behaviours and actions - how true it is! We only wish Airbnb would start listening to what Im seeing (and reading) as a real deep dissatisfaction amongst owners and hosts with their (consistent) attitude and systems.
As I write this we are still fighting with Airbnb to turn on our direct booking function which we have had in place since we started. A month ago we, in discussion and agreement with Airbnb - they strong suggested it - cancelled a booking from a guest that stated they were from Beijing and in their note said they were from Hong Kong - this apparently is a known guest "red flag". So in conjuntion with Airbnb we cancel the booking and unknown to us Airbnb turn off our Auto book function in the background (it is still on in our settings!). We only find out about this weeks later when it is clear all bookings are coming through as an enquiry. It is costing us 1000's in lost bookings and I think I'd have more chance of finding Harold Holt than getting them to care.
We just keep trying though.
Take care
@Sarah-And-Tom0 I'm sorry you felt I was being harsh with the doormat comment. Wasn't my intention. I have a ton of empathy for hosts who have to put up with these types of guests. It really wasn't directed at you personally, it was a general comment that applies to nice hosts bending over backwards to accommodate demanding guests.
When guests continue to be overly demanding, when hosts have clearly tried to be sympathetic and accommodating, the guests are not being at all respectful or appreciative. If hosts continue to try to meet all of these types of guests demands, it seems to do little good- the guests still leave bad reviews, because in fact, they aren't nice people, they are self-absorbed and have no appreciation for others going out of their way for them- they feel they deserve everything they want.Luckily I've never had to deal with guests like this, but I think we've all run into people in the course of our lives who are like this. and what i've discovered with these people is that they most often change their tune when they realize that you have a boundary that they are not allowed to cross. They have usually perfected some intimidation methods, no matter how subtle, and are used to getting their own way. Being nice to them by aquiescing to their unreasonable demands doesn't lead to them being nicer or more appreciative.
Thanks Sarah, it was good to get a range of feedback, and it was clear from that feedback that the host is in for some type of pain when they get the nutter guest walk through the door regardless of how they handle the situation.
We've only been with Airbnb for 12 months and have been abolutely blown away by their don't care attitude towards property owners - property owners have everything to lose: they have a capital investment of between $300k and $1m, and ongoing business income at stake and Airbnb couldnt care less. All the guest has at stake is their $500ish for their weekend away - which most hosts like us bend over backwards to make comfortable and pleasant - only to have to take harsh and bullish treatment and feedback.
We are currently reviewing our position with Airbnb, and other smart hosts would I assume be doing the same.
Take care.
@Sarah And Tom, I would have waited until the last minute on the 14th day to submit my review. The clock would run out and the guest likely wouldn't be able to write their review in time. I've done it before... works like a charm. That’s how I play this crazy system!
Thanks Emilia, weve learnt a bit more about the clock, and when it ends through this post.
Take care
I agree with Kath, I too have had a few guest that were not the best guest. I wish that if you had issues with guest & that were no fault of the owner they would not be able to leave bad reviews. Since that's not the what happens. I prepar a review, then wait til last hour to post it. Give the a thumbs down. I also had a few guest that lowered my rating just because they did not know how to write a review. Now I leave a Welcome letter that tell's them just how to leave a simple one and if they don't want to leave one to message me if they have any issues. On the flip side, I leave a nice review for our rental on their review so not to leave a neg review and just some welcome P R to anyone who reads it. I do include everything that that happend to the parts they say guest can't see. Now I get better reviews. I had one guest who locked herself out, actually she stayed past checkout and lock code changed and no longer would work due to past time frame. So she messaged me that the lock was broken that I needed to do something like call a locksmith. So I am thinking wait your there 1/2 hour past time and can't get your luggage out. I said ok I called her back gave her a new code and she got in. Then leaves a bad review said my locks were bad even though I told her she was past check-out. After that I said in review Glad you had a wonderful time in Blank, this time of year we always have nice weather and so on talk only about your area and not her. Kind of makes them look bad. Sorry, But I know this happens I could tell more and believe me some are so much worse. My son lost 30 grand in his condo from a lady that let her kids play slip in slid in his hallway, flooded the place until neighboring tenants & HOA flood water came in on theirs and they put a stop to it, Had to do a whole home remodel cause water ruiend the floor and walls & cabinets, took 3 months to recover. I how ever, it took almost a year to recover from some bad reviews. Good thing I also use another plateform, but that's the way they choose to make it, instead of helping who's in the right.
If a guest ever screamed at me like that, I'd kick them straight out and change the lock. These are our homes!